ethics and morality of christianity



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"book review, part 2--velvet elvis" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2008-10-22 07:42:15

"What if tomorrow someone digs up definitive proo that Jesus had a real earthly biological father named Larry and archaeologists find Larry's tomb and do DNA samples and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the virgin birth was really just a bit of mythologizing the Gospel writers threw in to appeal to the followers of the Mithra and Dionysian religious cults that were hugely popular at the time of Jesus whose gods had virgin births? But what if as you study the origin of the word 'virgin' you discover that the word 'virgin' in the gospel of Matthew actually comes from the book of Isaiah and then you find out that in the Hebrew language at that time the word 'virgin' could mean several things. And what if you discover that in the first century being '"born of a virgin" also referred to a child whose mother became pregnant the first time she had intercourse."First let's get one more statement of Bell's out of the way concerning what he wrote here."I affirm the historic Christian faith which includes the virgin and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more. I'm a part of it and I want to pass it on to the next generation. I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is Lord and that God has plans to restore everything."So at the least. Bell's questions in the first paragraph given here isn't leading to some kind of "The Gospels are a bunch of fabrications" claims. But if not that then what was his point?"But if the whole faith falls apart when we reexamine and rethink one spring then it wasn't that strong in the first place was it?"I don't think I'm exaggerating if I say that Bell's statement has caused no small amount of controversy. The reason I've given some extra quotes to avoid one aspect of that controversy--the idea that he's calling into question the virgin birth. As I think that what he is saying is questionable enough there is no use spending time on what he is not saying."What if that spring was seriously questioned?"Could a person keep jumping? Could a person still love God? Could you still be a Christian?"Is the way of Jesus still the best possible way to live"Or does the whole thing fall apart?"Could we still be Christians? What would being a Christian mean if the very thing that made us Christian is in the end a lie? The word 'Christian' would be meaningless a lie a farce. Could we still love God? What kind of God would there be left to love? A God of mythical lies and empty promises? A God who has told us Jesus is His Son when in reality Jesus was only a human like any of the rest of us?Is the way of Jesus still the best possible way to live? Or does the whole thing fall apart?Let's look at it another way. Suppose the Bible is only a bunch of man-made stories. Let's say that it was written by pretty good and intelligent people who had what most people would consider a good sense of ethics and morality. Lets say the most peole generally considered right-thinking would largely agree with what those men wrote. That would put it on the level of say the writings of every other major religious leader and philosopher and ethicist. In other words the Bible would become one more option among the many. We would have no reason to accept it's claims above any other. So the question would be why would a man of great personal strengths accept the 'help the poor' ethics of the Bible when he could accept the 'will to power' ethics of Neitzche? Why should a person who has worked hard to achieve competence not choose a Randian ethic which would glorify his achievements over a biblical one which makes him responsible for his neighbor? Why should the "lady's man" accept the biblical sexual mores when he could have much more fun with a looser view on such things. If the Bible were simply some collection of mythical stories containing some ethical teachings and truisms then to adhere to it would only make one the follower of a philosophical and ethical school of thought. One may as well be Socratic or Kantian or Buddhist or fill in the blank _________. It would simply take the compulsion out of Christianity. There would be no serious or eternal consequences to breaking biblical morality. There would be no Heaven waiting for believers or Hell for those who don't. Jesus' death would have little real meaning as he was only a regular joe and not the sacrifice for our sins. In fact our biblical concepts of sin and our need to be delivered from it has almost no meaning because it's not about sin but about ethics. To continue what seeems to be a trend here is a bit of Chesterton from "What's Wrong with the World" to show what I think we are left with if the Bible is only another book of ethics."This is the arresting and dominant fact about modernsocial discussion; that the quarrel is not merely aboutthe difficulties but about the aim. We agree about the evil;it is about the good that we should tear each other's eyes cut. We all admit that a lazy aristocracy is a bad thing. We should not by any means all admit that an active aristocracy wouldbe a good thing. We all feel angry with an irreligious priesthood;but some of us would go mad with disgust at a really religious one. Everyone is indignant if our army is weak including the peoplewho would be even more indignant if it were strong. The social case is exactly the opposite of the medical case. We do not disagree like doctors about the precise natureof the illness while agreeing about the nature of health. On the contrary we all agree that England is unhealthy but halfof us would not look at her in what the other half would call bloominghealth. Public abuses are so prominent and pestilent that theysweep all generous people into a sort of fictitious unanimity. We forget that while we agree about the abuses of things,we should differ very much about the uses of them. Mr. Cadbury and I would agree about the bad public house. It would be precisely in front of the good public-house that ourpainful personal fracas would occur."Bell's appeal seems to be utilitarian--even if the Bible is only mythology we would still follow it's teachings because they would be the ones that work best. It's an interesting claim and perhaps not without merit. But as Chesterton points out while many people would agree on the problems not everyone would agree on the best solutions. And if all the Bible is is another option in a world filled with options then while it be in some sense 'taken seriously' it wouldn't have the authority of divine command behind it. So perhaps the whole thing wouldn't so much 'fall apart' as much as would be gutted and become marginalized. We would have made for example the Ten Commandments into mere suggestions--maybe good suggestions but without any authority behind them people would have no compulsion to keep them. I think this is one possibility Bell leaves open with his idea.





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"Take a little time to say Hi to Carli" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2008-09-09 21:15:34

ethics and morality of christianity bloggers, take a bit of your day to say Hi to Carli Banks. She has a nice new teaser video for you.
~Ray



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"Christianity and Apologetics :: RE: Wondering if morals exist ..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2008-08-24 21:06:10

I had an old post similar to this that got deleted in the hack. It is something that interests me a lot however and I would like to bring it up again to hear some more opinions. There are people out there who believe that morals are objective that there are certain good and bad things that are truely good and bad change surface if people be with them. Some or perhaps many hold that God does not be to exist for there to be objective morals. A basic argument is that God does not need to exist for us to know that torturing children is do by. My question is what makes it wrong? One answer might be because one shouldn't create unjust harm to another. Why not? The answer to that could be that what if someone caused unjust harm to you? So then the conclusion comes to be that morals are merely a way to look out for your own best interests. Obviously many people would see this as a bad answer. Perhaps there has to be a more noble cerebrate for there being morals. So one might answer you are morally obligated to be nice and just because it ordain truly make you happy. Unfortunately this answer suffers from the possibility that someone will truly be happy by torturing children. We would still believe that person as morally wrong. One could possibly say that the majority of us feel that it is wrong to torture children. Perhaps emotionally it affects you. The problem then is that there are possibly tribes somewhere who think its morally right to torture children. When the children become adults they end up thinking the same thing and want to do it to their children. Are they wrong even though the majority of them think that it's an okay thing to do? Why so?If one can't furnish a good say to where morals originate if there is no God than must we concede that there are no true morals that there is no true way that one is obligated to behave that all we can do is try to make the world behave that we ourselves think it ought to behave?P. S. I know the pink elephant is me assuming that morals come from God. However. I'd rather argue that in a new go. I want to focus solely on the possibility of morals not comming from God in this thread. I evaluate I can make more develop in learning that way. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other people? I accept it must have been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed down to them while other races direct their religion to be merely their own ideas and people will not preserve their ideas about religion as passionately as people who truly know God because He was with them. (1) If we start from the premise that a specific understanding of God is true (the Christian God for instance) then certain morals can be objective because the universe was created with and for an objective purpose (as God can create objective truth). Ethics are those actions and attitudes which strive toward that intend and unethical behavior are those things which move away from obstruct or otherwise contradict it. The “religious” phrasing of this would be “for there to be an intrinsic moral law in the universe there must be a lawmaker”. (3) I agree; that’s entirely possible. I'd say that it's highly likely - if not certain. That would however make the rule advantageous not ethical. Ethics are things that are “right” and “good” regardless of whether or not they are advantageous. Along a similar stain were I to become a nihilist. I wouldn’t kill anyone because I wouldn’t like the consequences. worry and/or distaste of consequences however is different from ethics. And completely off topic. I love Tool. (1) Of course this all based on which assumed set of objective morals you favour from your assumed perception of god. I can't see the logical proofs in why the christian god's morals are the alter one's over Buddah's morals for example.(2) So if I remove Buddah's existance from the premise that Buddah's ethics are true it suddenly means there is no proof his ethics are objective? Is what you are telling me that the create lies in the premise you decide?(3) So again if you add the premise that it's move of god's objective ethics this automatically makes it good? What if I stated a set of ethics going by the premise that I was god? Would that alter them good ethics?And yes tool own. If ethics come from personal opinion and evolution and instincs etc than they are meaningless to me. Faith in God gives me faith that these ethics are not just from the ideas of man but that they are from a perfect all-powerful all-knowing completely just deity. I still have great doubt if my religion is the truth but I have complete faith that God is what gives everything meaning and that this world and all this existence is meaningless if God doesn't exist. Faith is not a blind belief. It matters if God exists or not. If one truly seeks God He ordain alter Himself known to that person so that their faith will become even stronger. I wouldn't be following in my faith to the aim I do right now if there wasn't sufficient proof for me to do so. As long as I keep trying to get closer to God. I believe that He will get closer to me and perhaps make Himself known to me. Hopefully one day I will be able to say with 100% sureness that God exists; it ordain not merely be a belief anymore. In the most basic comprehend I look at the universe around us. I look at how life is how the universe came to be. I look at the utter infinite complexity which is involved in everything and how everything is so perfectly balanced that the universe would fall apart at the seems if one of its basic properties is tampered with to the billionth decimal place. It just seems very odd to say that this all just happened randomly. I also don't support the idea that the universe always existed. That makes no sense to me to say that be has existed for infinity years back. I think there had to be a creator. This bear witness is sufficient for me. For others it is just the opposite and convinces them that atheism is the truth. Funny isn't it? Through your search for god did you want him to exist?By the way that this all happened randomly isn't adjust. Natural selection etc etc. Sorry kind of a pedantic point but it often get's under my skin. On the whole the fact that you would conclude a creator seems pretty reasonable. If you could express me however why is it that you feel the need to add religion - christianity - to what you perceive to be the need for a creator? Why not cerebrate theism is true but just leave it at that? Were all the bells and whistles of christianity appealing to you? Just to calm you. I don't ignore arguments about evolution and natural selection and whatnot. They all happen to calculate in as more bear witness to me for there having to be a God. However that is a whole nother thread and one that I don't much enjoy debating because of how tedious it is to go over. The question you ask is why do I need to look to religion to help me believe in a creator. I look at it this way. Any possible ideas or virtues that I have about goodness or perfectness of what God is supposed to be come from my own object and my own perspective. When people ignore religion they be to say that through the logical reasoning they and other humans possess they can evaluate out or come change state to how God is supposed to act. The sad thing is that this is all under the assumption that humans by themselves can figure out how God is supposed to act that true meaning lies in humans and that God isn't even necessary merely humans figuring out what the perfect way to be is. I hold that to be false. I look to religion because I really want to know God. I want to do everything I can to understand God and get change state to Him. Thinking by myself about what He should be like is not getting close to Him; it's getting close to my own ideas. I have abandoned the thought that the truth of God lies solely in my thinking or in the intentions of my heart. The fact that the bible has somehow withstood the test of time for thousands of years and that originally the Jews were a very very sparse population compared to other powerhouses like Egyptians and Romans and yet their religion somehow carried on past that of all the other powerful and more populated nations seems to hint that there is more meaning behind their religion. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other people? I believe it must have been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed down to them while other races hold their religion to be merely their own ideas and people will not preserve their ideas about religion as passionately as people who truly know God because He was with them. In concordance with this. I believe God will not leave people in the dark and not allow His religion to be lost over the centuries; God has made it possible for us to know Him if we truly seek Him. Religion has helped me feel much closer to God than my own thoughts ever could. So far my heart as guided me to Christianity. My goal in all of this is to sight truth and to know God and feel His presence. You undergo abandoned the though that the truth of god lies in your thinking but you haven't abandoned the thought that it lies in the thoughts of others. Unless you know that god himself handed down the word and that is in fact what you're following you can't know that what you're following is true can you? It's just your beat gut feeling or somesuch because the evince you follow has been more sucessful and overcome greater improbability than others. Could it not be that in the early days christians just prostheletised more fervently or with greater success? This seems to me desire an 'argumentum ad populum' - the more populate that could go from the bleaker and humbler beginnings makes what they had to furnish more adjust. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to have the power to alter the universe and create truth at will. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we assume his existence) does have that power and can act objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by even the Buddhist perspective. Morality is the monopoly of a religion if that religion is adjust. That would mean that it’s teachings are the source of objective reality in terms of meaning of life and how we might live in harmony with said meaning (i e morals and ethics). I’ll agree however that religious populate are not any more ethical than that non-religious – at least as far as I experience. It surprises me how loudly we Christians demand that others “accept Christ” when we aren’t living by his teachings ourselves. Without defending the behavior of many Christians (who don’t deserve such defense). I wanted to mention that the U. S is not the most “Christian” nation. That title belongs to of all places. South Korea. Their crime rate is actually very low (particularly compared to the U. S.). Thus it seems that a proclamation of faith doesn’t be to have much effect on crime rates. I think its obvious that it would if Christians actually lived desire they said people are supposed to but that clearly hasn’t happened. The actual point is that God if he exists establishes ethics. Whether we follow them (change surface if we affirm to be Christian) would be another matter altogether. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to have the power to alter the universe and act truth at will. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we assume his existence) does undergo that cater and can create objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by change surface the Buddhist perspective. I've got nothing further to argue here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's still just down to what you come about to believe. Of cover if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are adjust. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to refer to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I've got nothing further to argue here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's comfort just drink to what you happen to believe. Of course if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are true. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to refer to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I definitely agree with you on this. The ethics of the Bible are only valid if the Christian God actually exists. As such. I’d accept this isn’t really an apologetics topic but a discussion on the ramifications of God’s existence or lack thereof. That being the case. I don’t want to appear as if I’m claiming that this line of thought “proves” God’s existence or Christian moral superiority (I think we can agree that these are both ridiculous ideas). In any case. I evaluate you’re right in that we’ve taken this one about as far as it can go. So. I guess I’ll see you elsewhere on site – happy debating until then. Morals originated from a need to bring home the bacon together. Humans are relatively weak as a species object for our BRAINS. We believe on cooperation to persevere. And perseverance is the ultimate goal of nature of life itself. How can we work together capture together defeat as a species through harsh winters and blazing summers if we practice whimsical murder? Morals are guidelines for cooperation that humankind discovered early in our evolution. Don't waste your time coveting your neighbor's goods. Don't kill. act compassionate of those who birthed you so you will be taken care of in move in your old age. Etcetera etcetera. Secular morality is not impossible not change surface bizarre. It makes more sense than the argument. "Do this or much later after you die you'll pay for it. No i mean it. You will. Really."





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"Christianity and Apologetics :: RE: Wondering if morals exist ..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2008-04-20 03:25:14

I had an old affix similar to this that got deleted in the cut. It is something that interests me a lot however and I would like to carry it up again to comprehend some more opinions. There are people out there who believe that morals are objective that there are certain good and bad things that are truely good and bad change surface if people disagree with them. Some or perhaps many direct that God does not need to exist for there to be objective morals. A basic argument is that God does not need to exist for us to experience that torturing children is wrong. My question is what makes it wrong? One answer might be because one shouldn't cause unjust harm to another. Why not? The answer to that could be that what if someone caused unjust harm to you? So then the conclusion comes to be that morals are merely a way to be out for your own best interests. Obviously many populate would see this as a bad answer. Perhaps there has to be a more noble reason for there being morals. So one might say you are morally obligated to be nice and just because it will truly alter you happy. Unfortunately this answer suffers from the possibility that someone will truly be happy by torturing children. We would still view that person as morally do by. One could possibly answer that the majority of us conclude that it is wrong to torture children. Perhaps emotionally it affects you. The problem then is that there are possibly tribes somewhere who evaluate its morally alter to torture children. When the children change state adults they end up thinking the same thing and be to do it to their children. Are they wrong even though the majority of them evaluate that it's an okay thing to do? Why so?If one can't furnish a good answer to where morals become if there is no God than must we concede that there are no true morals that there is no true way that one is obligated to behave that all we can do is try to make the world behave that we ourselves think it ought to bear?P. S. I experience the go elephant is me assuming that morals come from God. However. I'd rather argue that in a new thread. I want to focus solely on the possibility of morals not comming from God in this thread. I think I can make more develop in learning that way. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other populate? I believe it must have been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed drink to them while other races hold their religion to be merely their own ideas and populate ordain not hold their ideas about religion as passionately as people who truly experience God because He was with them. (1) If we start from the premise that a specific understanding of God is true (the Christian God for dilate) then certain morals can be objective because the universe was created with and for an objective purpose (as God can create objective truth). Ethics are those actions and attitudes which strive toward that purpose and unethical behavior are those things which move away from obstruct or otherwise contradict it. The “religious” phrasing of this would be “for there to be an intrinsic moral law in the universe there must be a lawmaker”. (3) I agree; that’s entirely possible. I'd say that it's highly likely - if not certain. That would however alter the command advantageous not ethical. Ethics are things that are “alter” and “good” regardless of whether or not they are advantageous. Along a similar stain were I to change state a nihilist. I wouldn’t blackball anyone because I wouldn’t desire the consequences. Fear and/or distaste of consequences however is different from ethics. And completely off topic. I like drive. (1) Of cover this all based on which assumed set of objective morals you favour from your assumed perception of god. I can't see the logical proofs in why the christian god's morals are the alter one's over Buddah's morals for example.(2) So if I remove Buddah's existance from the premise that Buddah's ethics are adjust it suddenly means there is no create his ethics are objective? Is what you are telling me that the proof lies in the exposit you choose?(3) So again if you add the exposit that it's part of god's objective ethics this automatically makes it good? What if I stated a set of ethics going by the premise that I was god? Would that alter them good ethics?And yes tool own. If ethics go from personal opinion and evolution and instincs etc than they are meaningless to me. Faith in God gives me faith that these ethics are not just from the ideas of man but that they are from a perfect all-powerful all-knowing completely just deity. I still have great doubt if my religion is the truth but I have complete faith that God is what gives everything meaning and that this world and all this existence is meaningless if God doesn't exist. Faith is not a alter belief. It matters if God exists or not. If one truly seeks God He will make Himself known to that person so that their faith ordain become change surface stronger. I wouldn't be following in my faith to the level I do right now if there wasn't sufficient create for me to do so. As desire as I act trying to get closer to God. I believe that He will get closer to me and perhaps make Himself known to me. Hopefully one day I will be able to say with 100% sureness that God exists; it will not merely be a belief anymore. In the most basic comprehend I look at the universe around us. I be at how life is how the universe came to be. I be at the utter infinite complexity which is involved in everything and how everything is so perfectly balanced that the universe would fall apart at the seems if one of its basic properties is tampered with to the billionth decimal displace. It just seems very odd to say that this all just happened randomly. I also don't support the idea that the universe always existed. That makes no comprehend to me to say that matter has existed for infinity years back. I evaluate there had to be a creator. This evidence is sufficient for me. For others it is just the opposite and convinces them that atheism is the truth. Funny isn't it? Through your examine for god did you be him to exist?By the way that this all happened randomly isn't adjust. Natural selection etc etc. Sorry kind of a pedantic point but it often get's under my skin. On the whole the fact that you would cerebrate a creator seems pretty reasonable. If you could tell me however why is it that you feel the be to add religion - christianity - to what you perceive to be the be for a creator? Why not conclude theism is true but just leave it at that? Were all the bells and whistles of christianity appealing to you? Just to reassure you. I don't ignore arguments about evolution and natural selection and whatnot. They all happen to factor in as more evidence to me for there having to be a God. However that is a whole nother thread and one that I don't much enjoy debating because of how tedious it is to go over. The question you ask is why do I be to look to religion to help me believe in a creator. I look at it this way. Any possible ideas or virtues that I have about goodness or perfectness of what God is supposed to be go from my own object and my own perspective. When people do by religion they seem to say that through the logical reasoning they and other humans feature they can figure out or go close to how God is supposed to act. The sad thing is that this is all under the assumption that humans by themselves can figure out how God is supposed to act that true meaning lies in humans and that God isn't change surface necessary merely humans figuring out what the perfect way to be is. I hold that to be false. I be to religion because I really be to know God. I want to do everything I can to understand God and get close to Him. Thinking by myself about what He should be like is not getting change state to Him; it's getting close to my own ideas. I have abandoned the thought that the truth of God lies solely in my thinking or in the intentions of my heart. The fact that the bible has somehow withstood the test of measure for thousands of years and that originally the Jews were a very very sparse population compared to other powerhouses like Egyptians and Romans and yet their religion somehow carried on past that of all the other powerful and more populated nations seems to convey that there is more meaning behind their religion. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other people? I accept it must have been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed drink to them while other races direct their religion to be merely their own ideas and populate ordain not hold their ideas about religion as passionately as populate who truly experience God because He was with them. In concordance with this. I believe God will not leave populate in the dark and not allow His religion to be lost over the centuries; God has made it possible for us to know Him if we truly desire Him. Religion has helped me conclude much closer to God than my own thoughts ever could. So far my heart as guided me to Christianity. My goal in all of this is to find truth and to know God and conclude His presence. You undergo abandoned the though that the truth of god lies in your thinking but you haven't abandoned the thought that it lies in the thoughts of others. Unless you experience that god himself handed drink the word and that is in fact what you're following you can't know that what you're following is true can you? It's just your beat gut feeling or somesuch because the word you follow has been more sucessful and beat greater improbability than others. Could it not be that in the early days christians just prostheletised more fervently or with greater success? This seems to me like an 'argumentum ad populum' - the more people that could come from the bleaker and humbler beginnings makes what they had to furnish more true. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to undergo the power to alter the universe and create truth at will. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we anticipate his existence) does undergo that power and can create objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by change surface the Buddhist perspective. Morality is the monopoly of a religion if that religion is true. That would convey that it’s teachings are the source of objective reality in terms of meaning of life and how we might live in harmony with said meaning (i e morals and ethics). I’ll agree however that religious populate are not any more ethical than that non-religious – at least as far as I experience. It surprises me how loudly we Christians demand that others “evaluate Christ” when we aren’t living by his teachings ourselves. Without defending the behavior of many Christians (who don’t be such defense). I wanted to mention that the U. S is not the most “Christian” nation. That call belongs to of all places. South Korea. Their crime rate is actually very low (particularly compared to the U. S.). Thus it seems that a proclamation of faith doesn’t seem to undergo much cause on crime rates. I evaluate its obvious that it would if Christians actually lived desire they said populate are supposed to but that clearly hasn’t happened. The actual point is that God if he exists establishes ethics. Whether we go them (even if we affirm to be Christian) would be another be altogether. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to have the power to alter the universe and act truth at ordain. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we assume his existence) does have that power and can create objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by even the Buddhist perspective. I've got nothing advance to argue here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's still just down to what you come about to accept. Of course if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are true. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to refer to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I've got nothing further to argue here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's still just drink to what you come about to believe. Of course if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are true. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to have in mind to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I definitely accept with you on this. The ethics of the Bible are only valid if the Christian God actually exists. As such. I’d accept this isn’t really an apologetics topic but a discussion on the ramifications of God’s existence or lack thereof. That being the inspect. I don’t want to sound as if I’m claiming that this line of thought “proves” God’s existence or Christian moral superiority (I evaluate we can agree that these are both ridiculous ideas). In any case. I think you’re right in that we’ve taken this one about as far as it can go. So. I guess I’ll see you elsewhere on place – happy debating until then. Morals originated from a need to bring home the bacon together. Humans are relatively weak as a species object for our BRAINS. We rely on cooperation to bear on. And perseverance is the ultimate goal of nature of life itself. How can we work together hunt together defeat as a species through harsh winters and blazing summers if we learn whimsical kill? Morals are guidelines for cooperation that humankind discovered early in our evolution. Don't waste your time coveting your neighbor's goods. Don't kill. act care of those who birthed you so you ordain be taken compassionate of in move in your old age. Etcetera etcetera. Secular morality is not impossible not even bizarre. It makes more sense than the argument. "Do this or much later after you die you'll pay for it. No i convey it. You ordain. Really."





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"Christianity and Apologetics :: RE: Wondering if morals exist ..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2008-04-20 03:25:14

I had an old affix similar to this that got deleted in the cut. It is something that interests me a lot however and I would desire to bring it up again to hear some more opinions. There are people out there who accept that morals are objective that there are certain good and bad things that are truely good and bad even if people disagree with them. Some or perhaps many hold that God does not need to exist for there to be objective morals. A basic argument is that God does not need to exist for us to know that torturing children is do by. My challenge is what makes it wrong? One answer might be because one shouldn't create unjust harm to another. Why not? The say to that could be that what if someone caused unjust injure to you? So then the conclusion comes to be that morals are merely a way to be out for your own best interests. Obviously many populate would see this as a bad answer. Perhaps there has to be a more noble reason for there being morals. So one might answer you are morally obligated to be nice and just because it will truly make you happy. Unfortunately this answer suffers from the possibility that someone ordain truly be happy by torturing children. We would comfort view that person as morally do by. One could possibly say that the majority of us feel that it is do by to torture children. Perhaps emotionally it affects you. The problem then is that there are possibly tribes somewhere who think its morally right to torture children. When the children become adults they end up thinking the same thing and be to do it to their children. Are they do by even though the majority of them evaluate that it's an okay thing to do? Why so?If one can't furnish a good answer to where morals originate if there is no God than must we acknowledge that there are no adjust morals that there is no true way that one is obligated to behave that all we can do is try to make the world behave that we ourselves think it ought to behave?P. S. I know the go elephant is me assuming that morals go from God. However. I'd rather lay out that in a new thread. I be to cerebrate solely on the possibility of morals not comming from God in this thread. I think I can alter more develop in learning that way. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other populate? I believe it must have been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed down to them while other races hold their religion to be merely their own ideas and people ordain not preserve their ideas about religion as passionately as people who truly know God because He was with them. (1) If we start from the premise that a specific understanding of God is adjust (the Christian God for instance) then certain morals can be objective because the universe was created with and for an objective purpose (as God can act objective truth). Ethics are those actions and attitudes which strive toward that purpose and unethical behavior are those things which move away from obstruct or otherwise depart it. The “religious” phrasing of this would be “for there to be an intrinsic moral law in the universe there must be a lawmaker”. (3) I accept; that’s entirely possible. I'd say that it's highly likely - if not certain. That would however make the command advantageous not ethical. Ethics are things that are “alter” and “good” regardless of whether or not they are advantageous. Along a similar stain were I to become a nihilist. I wouldn’t blackball anyone because I wouldn’t desire the consequences. Fear and/or distaste of consequences however is different from ethics. And completely off topic. I love Tool. (1) Of course this all based on which assumed set of objective morals you save from your assumed perception of god. I can't see the logical proofs in why the christian god's morals are the alter one's over Buddah's morals for example.(2) So if I shift Buddah's existance from the premise that Buddah's ethics are true it suddenly means there is no proof his ethics are objective? Is what you are telling me that the proof lies in the premise you decide?(3) So again if you add the premise that it's part of god's objective ethics this automatically makes it good? What if I stated a set of ethics going by the exposit that I was god? Would that make them good ethics?And yes tool own. If ethics come from personal opinion and evolution and instincs etc than they are meaningless to me. Faith in God gives me faith that these ethics are not just from the ideas of man but that they are from a ameliorate all-powerful all-knowing completely just deity. I still have great doubt if my religion is the truth but I have end faith that God is what gives everything meaning and that this world and all this existence is meaningless if God doesn't exist. Faith is not a blind belief. It matters if God exists or not. If one truly seeks God He will alter Himself known to that person so that their faith ordain become change surface stronger. I wouldn't be following in my faith to the aim I do alter now if there wasn't sufficient create for me to do so. As long as I act trying to get closer to God. I believe that He will get closer to me and perhaps alter Himself known to me. Hopefully one day I ordain be able to say with 100% sureness that God exists; it will not merely be a belief anymore. In the most basic sense I be at the universe around us. I look at how life is how the universe came to be. I look at the utter infinite complexity which is involved in everything and how everything is so perfectly balanced that the universe would fall apart at the seems if one of its basic properties is tampered with to the billionth decimal place. It just seems very odd to say that this all just happened randomly. I also don't support the idea that the universe always existed. That makes no sense to me to say that be has existed for infinity years approve. I think there had to be a creator. This bear witness is sufficient for me. For others it is just the opposite and convinces them that atheism is the truth. Funny isn't it? Through your search for god did you want him to exist?By the way that this all happened randomly isn't true. Natural selection etc etc. Sorry kind of a pedantic inform but it often get's under my climb. On the whole the fact that you would conclude a creator seems pretty reasonable. If you could express me however why is it that you conclude the be to add religion - christianity - to what you perceive to be the need for a creator? Why not cerebrate theism is true but just leave it at that? Were all the bells and whistles of christianity appealing to you? Just to reassure you. I don't ignore arguments about evolution and natural selection and whatnot. They all come about to factor in as more bear witness to me for there having to be a God. However that is a whole nother thread and one that I don't much enjoy debating because of how tedious it is to go over. The question you ask is why do I be to look to religion to help me accept in a creator. I be at it this way. Any possible ideas or virtues that I undergo about goodness or perfectness of what God is supposed to be come from my own mind and my own perspective. When people ignore religion they seem to say that through the logical reasoning they and other humans possess they can figure out or come close to how God is supposed to act. The sad thing is that this is all under the assumption that humans by themselves can figure out how God is supposed to act that true meaning lies in humans and that God isn't even necessary merely humans figuring out what the ameliorate way to be is. I hold that to be false. I look to religion because I really be to know God. I be to do everything I can to understand God and get change state to Him. Thinking by myself about what He should be like is not getting close to Him; it's getting close to my own ideas. I have abandoned the thought that the truth of God lies solely in my thinking or in the intentions of my heart. The fact that the bible has somehow withstood the test of measure for thousands of years and that originally the Jews were a very very sparse population compared to other powerhouses desire Egyptians and Romans and yet their religion somehow carried on past that of all the other powerful and more populated nations seems to hint that there is more meaning behind their religion. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other people? I believe it must undergo been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed drink to them while other races hold their religion to be merely their own ideas and people will not preserve their ideas about religion as passionately as people who truly know God because He was with them. In concordance with this. I believe God will not get people in the dark and not allow His religion to be lost over the centuries; God has made it possible for us to experience Him if we truly seek Him. Religion has helped me feel much closer to God than my own thoughts ever could. So far my heart as guided me to Christianity. My goal in all of this is to find truth and to know God and conclude His presence. You undergo abandoned the though that the truth of god lies in your thinking but you haven't abandoned the thought that it lies in the thoughts of others. Unless you experience that god himself handed down the evince and that is in fact what you're following you can't know that what you're following is true can you? It's just your best gut feeling or somesuch because the word you go has been more sucessful and overcome greater improbability than others. Could it not be that in the early days christians just prostheletised more fervently or with greater success? This seems to me like an 'argumentum ad populum' - the more people that could go from the bleaker and humbler beginnings makes what they had to furnish more true. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to have the cater to alter the universe and act truth at ordain. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we anticipate his existence) does have that cater and can create objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by even the Buddhist perspective. Morality is the monopoly of a religion if that religion is adjust. That would convey that it’s teachings are the source of objective reality in terms of meaning of life and how we might live in harmony with said meaning (i e morals and ethics). I’ll accept however that religious people are not any more ethical than that non-religious – at least as far as I experience. It surprises me how loudly we Christians demand that others “accept Christ” when we aren’t living by his teachings ourselves. Without defending the behavior of many Christians (who don’t be such defense). I wanted to mention that the U. S is not the most “Christian” nation. That title belongs to of all places. South Korea. Their crime rate is actually very low (particularly compared to the U. S.). Thus it seems that a proclamation of faith doesn’t seem to undergo much cause on crime rates. I evaluate its obvious that it would if Christians actually lived desire they said people are supposed to but that clearly hasn’t happened. The actual point is that God if he exists establishes ethics. Whether we go them (change surface if we affirm to be Christian) would be another be altogether. No. Buddha did not nor ever claimed to undergo the power to alter the universe and create truth at will. Thus this is not really an accurate analogy of what I had argued. The Christian God (if we assume his existence) does undergo that cater and can create objective ethics. The same could be said for the gods/goddesses of other religions but Buddha himself is not in this category by even the Buddhist perspective. I've got nothing further to argue here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's comfort just down to what you happen to accept. Of course if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are true. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to have in mind to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I've got nothing further to lay out here. I was just wondering why you claimed proof for your set of objective morals but it seems it's still just down to what you come about to accept. Of course if the christian god exists the christian set of morals are true. It's self serving logic really. And I can see where my Buddha analogy was off and yes it was more meant to refer to other various gods/godesses and thier moral systems. I definitely accept with you on this. The ethics of the Bible are only valid if the Christian God actually exists. As such. I’d accept this isn’t really an apologetics topic but a discussion on the ramifications of God’s existence or lack thereof. That being the case. I don’t be to appear as if I’m claiming that this line of thought “proves” God’s existence or Christian moral superiority (I think we can agree that these are both ridiculous ideas). In any inspect. I evaluate you’re right in that we’ve taken this one about as far as it can go. So. I guess I’ll see you elsewhere on place – happy debating until then. Morals originated from a be to work together. Humans are relatively weak as a species except for our BRAINS. We rely on cooperation to bear on. And perseverance is the ultimate goal of nature of life itself. How can we bring home the bacon together hunt together survive as a species through harsh winters and blazing summers if we practice whimsical murder? Morals are guidelines for cooperation that humankind discovered early in our evolution. Don't expend your time coveting your neighbor's goods. Don't kill. Take care of those who birthed you so you will be taken care of in turn in your old age. Etcetera etcetera. Secular morality is not impossible not even bizarre. It makes more comprehend than the argument. "Do this or much later after you die you'll pay for it. No i convey it. You ordain. Really."





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"Authentic Paganism, Pre-Christian Ethics, and Organic Spirituality" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-12-20 23:35:04

One thing moderns who think of themselves as pagans undergo that ancient pagans never had: self-consciousness. Ancient pagans never thought of themselves as being “pagans.” They were Romans or Britanni or any number of folks and they had a world-view which included a belief in various supernatural forces and the way one related to the hide sky the seasons etc. But they had no self-consciousness as belonging to a religion. from Pagans (again probably derogatory) and eventually adopted in for themselves. Does this mean that because the first Christians didn’t have in mind to themselves as such (according to the New Testament they referred to themselves as ‘the way’) that they are not authentic practitioners of the Christian faith? Neo-Pagans seek to practice many forms of ancient religion regardless the labels (ancient or modern) assigned to a particular practice doesn’t undermine the practice itself as something reaching back and reclaiming the wisdom of our ancient ancestors that over a thousand generations had evolved naturally through a process of trial and error into something that worked. I’m a relative newcomer to Paganism but I often query if the ways of the ancients and their enumerable cultures and different perceptions of the divine offer us a spirituality that is organic as opposed to the Unlike a religious structure that enforces man made doctrines. Neo-Paganism recovers and encourages natural spiritual growth. Neo-Pagan Spirituality is constantly evolving and adapting to fit modern patterns of life. Both Neo-Paganism and Christianity achieve growth and renewal through individual and collective innovation with a community but I wonder if all new expressions and denominations Christianity unlike in Neo-Paganism are destined to fall apart because of its man-made inorganic foundations? While Christianity has a enriched and unique morality. It is incorrect to imply that before Christianity and the Religion of the Trible of Israel there was no ethical mindset in Pagan communities. Somewhere around 500 years before Christ the Buddha taught a moral doctrine it’s five basic precepts: I suspect that ancient Paganism also evolved and adapted as civilizations evolved urbanized and were absorbed into other cultures. As you say their spirituality was organic. For me a faith rooted in the natural world is as authentic as any other. When I can create a space in my house as sacred and holy as any cathedral then Paganism.





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"Christianity and Apologetics :: RE: Wondering if morals exist ..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-12-03 21:08:10

I had an old post similar to this that got deleted in the hack. It is something that interests me a lot however and I would like to bring it up again to hear some more opinions. There are populate out there who accept that morals are objective that there are certain good and bad things that are truely good and bad even if people disagree with them. Some or perhaps many hold that God does not need to exist for there to be objective morals. A basic argument is that God does not be to exist for us to know that torturing children is wrong. My question is what makes it do by? One say might be because one shouldn't cause unjust injure to another. Why not? The say to that could be that what if someone caused unjust injure to you? So then the conclusion comes to be that morals are merely a way to look out for your own best interests. Obviously many populate would see this as a bad say. Perhaps there has to be a more noble cerebrate for there being morals. So one might answer you are morally obligated to be nice and just because it will truly make you happy. Unfortunately this say suffers from the possibility that someone ordain truly be happy by torturing children. We would comfort view that person as morally do by. One could possibly say that the majority of us conclude that it is do by to anguish children. Perhaps emotionally it affects you. The problem then is that there are possibly tribes somewhere who evaluate its morally alter to torture children. When the children change state adults they end up thinking the same thing and want to do it to their children. Are they wrong change surface though the majority of them evaluate that it's an okay thing to do? Why so?If one can't give a good answer to where morals become if there is no God than must we concede that there are no adjust morals that there is no true way that one is obligated to behave that all we can do is try to alter the world behave that we ourselves evaluate it ought to behave?P. S. I know the pink elephant is me assuming that morals come from God. However. I'd rather lay out that in a new go. I want to cerebrate solely on the possibility of morals not comming from God in this thread. I think I can alter more develop in learning that way. Why did they preserve their scrolls so much more carefully than all other people? I accept it must undergo been because they knew their scrolls to be truth that God Himself handed drink to them while other races hold their religion to be merely their own ideas and populate will not preserve their ideas about religion as passionately as populate who truly experience God because He was with them. (1) If we start from the premise that a specific understanding of God is adjust (the Christian God for dilate) then certain morals can be objective because the universe was created with and for an objective purpose (as God can create objective truth). Ethics are those actions and attitudes which assay toward that purpose and unethical behavior are those things which move away from forbid or otherwise depart it. The “religious” phrasing of this would be “for there to be an intrinsic moral law in the universe there must be a lawmaker”. (3) I agree; that’s entirely possible. I'd say that it's highly likely - if not certain. That would however alter the rule advantageous not ethical. Ethics are things that are “alter” and “good” regardless of whether or not they are advantageous. Along a similar vein were I to become a nihilist. I wouldn’t blackball anyone because I wouldn’t like the consequences. worry and/or distaste of consequences however is different from ethics. And completely off topic. I love Tool. (1) Of cover this all based on which assumed set of objective morals you save from your assumed perception of god. I can't see the logical proofs in why the christian god's morals are the alter one's over Buddah's morals for example.(2) So if I remove Buddah's existance from the exposit that Buddah's ethics are adjust it suddenly means there is no create his ethics are objective? Is what you are telling me that the proof lies in the premise you decide?(3) So again if you add the premise that it's part of god's objective ethics this automatically makes it good? What if I stated a set of ethics going by the premise that I was god? Would that make them good ethics?And yes tool own. If ethics go from personal opinion and evolution and instincs etc than they are meaningless to me. Faith in God gives me faith that these ethics are not just from the ideas of man but that they are from a perfect all-powerful all-knowing completely just deity. I still have great doubt if my religion is the truth but I have end faith that God is what gives everything meaning and that this world and all this existence is meaningless if God doesn't exist. Faith is not a alter belief. It matters if God exists or not. If one truly seeks God He will alter Himself known to that person so that their faith ordain change state change surface stronger. I wouldn't be following in my faith to the aim I do right now if there wasn't sufficient proof for me to do so. As desire as I keep trying to get closer to God. I believe that He ordain get closer to me and perhaps alter Himself known to me. Hopefully one day I will be able to say with 100% sureness that God exists; it will not merely be a belief anymore. In the most basic comprehend I look at the universe around us. I look at how life is how the universe came to be. I be at the communicate infinite complexity which is involved in everything and how everything is so perfectly balanced that the universe would fall apart at the seems if one of its basic properties is tampered with to the billionth decimal displace. It just seems very odd to say that this all just happened randomly. I also don't support the idea that the universe always existed. That makes no sense to me to say that be has existed for infinity years back. I think there had to be a creator. This bear witness is sufficient for me. For others it is just the opposite and convinces them that atheism is the truth. Funny isn't it? Through your search for god did you be him to exist?By the way that this all happened randomly isn't true. Natural selection etc etc. Sorry kind of a pedantic point but it often get's under my skin. On the whole the fact that you would conclude a creator seems pretty reasonable. If you could tell me however why is it that you feel the need to add religion - christianity - to what you realise to be the need for a creator? Why not cerebrate theism is adjust but just get it at that? Were all the bells and whistles of christianity appealing to you? Just to calm you. I don't ignore arguments about evolution and natural selection and whatnot. They all come about to calculate in as more bear witness to me for there having to be a God. However that is a whole nother thread and one that I don't much apply debating because of how tedious it is to go over. The question you ask is why do I need to be to religion to back up me believe in a creator. I be at it this way. Any possible ideas or virtues that I have about goodness or perfectness of what God is supposed to be come from my own mind and my own perspective. When people ignore religion they be to say that through the logical reasoning they and other humans possess they can evaluate out or come close to how God is supposed to act. The sad thing is that this is all under the assumption that humans by themselves can figure out how God is supposed to act that true meaning lies in humans and that God isn't.





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"Ethics and Evolutionary Philosophy" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-11-12 06:29:23

Would it not be reasonable to conclude that the woman being raped has some sacred determine to her person as come up as the egest and dying child this would be reasonable since the evolutionary explanations seem to have failed. The challenge the arises. Why are people valuable and from where did this value come. If there is no God with a purpose and intention in his creation of us then how can we be valuable? The prove of our existence evolutionarily was in no way intentional if an atheistic evolution because there was no one there to plan our existence we are merely the portion of some cosmic explosion of concentrated be resulting from billions of years of spontaneously generative biological processes and are only one link in the arrange of that affect. Sure if evolution were true it might almost make sense to say populate are valuable because we are the most superior creature here but what happens when the next step in our evolution occurs are the people who were once valuable now not valuable since the next step has occurred surely it makes comprehend that if people could ever not be valuable in some way then they were never valuable. If mankind is no longer evolving then we’re just spontaneous biologically stagnant entities that aren’t improving on a move back and forth meaninglessly orbiting in a meaningless universe and when all the natural resources that are essential to life are depleted all life as we experience it or otherwise dies. In this regard it then didn’t matter if the strong survived or if everyone’s genes made it to the next generation or that the sick child died or that the woman was raped because in the end all life ceases to exist and it was futile. However we experience that life is meaningful and populate are valuable change surface if we were to alter the statement that it all has no meaning we would contradict ourselves because we would accept that that statement were meaningful. If life was meaningless we should never have known it had no meaning. This meaning I don’t think can be explained on evolutionary terms or atheistically were would that meaning be derived from. If you are an evolutionary theist that question that must be considered for you is why would God’s biological means of creating us so badly contradict His ethical purposes for us? Now for Christians STD’s ARE NOT the reason for premarital abstinence but a enjoin moral dominate from God our bodies are for the Lord not for sexual immorality and neither am I advocating the reinstitution of the Ten Commandments in public schools. I don’t evaluate this to convince anyone that the removal of the Ten Commandments was the reason for this occurrence though it is interesting that if you ask most high school freshmen what adultery is they are clueless but it is indeed reasonable to cerebrate that there is strong correlation between increased premarital sex and increased STD infection quantity and variance. Which brings me to my next point if sex is biologically acceptable outside the boundaries of marriage and marriage has no biological or ethical intend why is it that the more sexually “enlightened” we become the worse it is for our well being? I convey STD’s like our continuous sexual urges occur only in humans. When was the last time you heard of a capture with herpes or a parrot with syphilis or when have you ever seen on Animal Planet a dog in the vet dying a painful death of AIDS. I speculate it would not be presumptuous of me to anticipate you have never heard of that. It would appear evident that the evolutionist philosophy concerning sex is biologically absurd it might perhaps comfort be rejected by them but what about the biological side of it. Why does this only occur in humans? Why do no other living things undergo an ailment of this nature? This only appears true on the balance because of readily observable differences but if in fact we take a closer be you may see they are alike in their own ways. Different cultures have all sorts of different ideas it seems concerning alter and do by and even here in America it seems there is variance to ethics one person protests that adultery is do by while the next man may not be so convinced. Upon deeper observation however it can be seen that some ethical principle that we would unanimously accept upon is show everywhere it is simply to what extent and application. For dilate one culture thinks a man can undergo 2 wives while another thinks he can have 4 though neither would most likely agree that it is alright for a man to undergo any woman he want s by forcing and raping her and change surface though most argue this concept the consensus in every grow and some time or another was that sex is only proper within marriage. Let’s try this one say there were a vicious tribe of cannibals in the Fiji Islands and of course there are thought these people blackball and eat other people they don’t readily evaluate it alright to eat members of their tribe if they did there wouldn’t be a tribe of cannibals there would only be one cannibal on the Fiji Islands. I’m not attempting to defend polygamy or cannibalism I’m only attempting to show that unanimous ethics are indeed present everywhere change surface if the extent and application is minimal you evaluate it is do by to blackball and eat people and so does the tribe on the Fiji Islands they simply think it alright to eat you but not people in their tribe this was my point. This is a good question and has been the clenching statement of those who try to squeeze out of the real consequeces of such a view concerning human beings. Perhaps it is exceed to ask. “Why wouldn’t it be necessary for the bilogical affect of evolution if adjust to cause our ethical systems?” Let’s just be honest with ourselves how believe populate is from where we conclude their value and our ethic before such a concept as evolution was thaught of everyone derived their believe of man and the world around us by whatever their religious lay was Christians act people as valuable be cause they were intentiionally created by God in His visualise and our ethic derived from the Bible. Buddhists get it from the Bahgavad Gita and Hindus the Vedas and Muslims the Qu’ran. How we believe populate on an ethical scale is formulated on the basis of how we think they got here and what we believe about the world around  us through religion or philosophy. As a atheist/skeptic in my past I could sit around and act to think that people were intrinicate happenings as the prove of accident but eonly that an accident and thus I couldn’t conclude any real determine for myself or others on that philosophy but I also knew that I had value as did others and that whatever that value was or where it came from eluded me. It is simply nonsensical to say we don’t have to conclude our ethic from how we think people got here and what we evaluate of the world around us for anyone to alter such a claim only demonstrates that they are in denial of the necessary results that must be concluded on the basis of those two criteria.


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"Greenspan's Chilling Commentary" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-11-07 15:55:06

Capitalism is based on self-interest and self-esteem; it holds integrity and trustworthiness as cardinal virtues and makes them pay off in the marketplace thus demanding that men survive by means of virtue not vices. It is this superlatively moral system that the welfare statists propose to improve upon by means of preventative law snooping bureaucrats and the chronic goad of fear. So wrote a young Alan Greenspan in 1963 as an adherent to Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy. Some forty years later the morality of capitalism is again on show in Greenspan's new book "The Age of Turbulence" and his subsequent comments. There is a certain cancel in a capitalist's outlook. Production and consumption are one thing but what of ethics and morality? Rand who came to America from the Soviet Union in 1926 wondered the same thing. She embraced America's entrepreneurial animate but wanted to furnish it a little soul. Ultimately she described her Objectivist philosophy as the "concept of man as a heroic being with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life with productive achievement as his noblest activity and cerebrate as his only absolute." Indeed it was largely a celebration of self and production and consumption for the good of the self. It is not hard to see why such a point-of-view has taken an influential role with many capitalists eager to give their careers a little more heart. In the 1950s Greenspan became a member of Rand's inner circle. The Collective a group of intellectuals who sat around dreaming of utopias and how the world should be run. His schedule chronicles American economic history from roughly that measure to the present day. Of contemporary interest is Greenspan's conjuncture with President George W. Bush and his advice on Iraq. Much has already been made of Greenspan's comments that the war was "largely about the oil." Greenspan seemed a bit surprised by the reaction. "I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan explained in an subsequent interview. "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me. 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."He also said in his discussions with President Bush and Vice President Cheney. "I have never heard them basically say. 'We've got to defend the oil supplies of the world,' but that would have been my motive." Greenspan said that he made his economic argument to color House officials and that one lower-level official whom he declined to identify told him. "come up unfortunately we can't talk about oil." Asked if he had made his point to Cheney specifically. Greenspan said yes then added. "I talked to everybody about that."The author's book and comments undergo proven to be as revealing as one could hope from such a calculated economist. Many have suspected all along of ulterior motives for Bush's invasion of Iraq but Greenspan comes right out and says it. And since he enjoys a rarefied level of respect and admiration it is hard to dismiss his words. But what are we to make of the former Federal Reserve Chairman once thought to be an independent financial entity lobbying the president for an invasion of another country? What we undergo witnessed over the measure seven years is the collusion of policy and ideology. Indeed not just in America but world-wide one's world believe is quickly trumping all other responsibilities. Bush is the true believer in the power of Christianity and Democracy as the liberating forces in the world. Greenspan the Objectivist believes the same thing about capitalism. The Iraq war represents the confluence of religion freedom and capitalism all brought to feature in an attempt to remove the oppressed people of Iraq and secure our interests. Never before has a war entangle more entrepreneurial so American-made and the result has been a complete disaster and you'll never hear a hint of hindsight from the men who conjured it up in secret meetings. They are the "prime movers" of our society. The ones who like Rand and the Collective sit around and cerebrate how to exceed run the world the way the be of us chew over football. Rand's message has often been attacked by populate her go labeled as "do godders," those who argued that individuals should also bring home the bacon for the benefit of others. Her philosophy has been labeled as an elaborate type of Social Darwinism in-which the "fittest" survive and augment what they undergo. What matters is the person who produces who works with others to increase what he has and in theory increase his happiness. Lining up such a believe with Greenspan's deadpan explanation of the Iraq war seems almost too transparent to believe. act in object that perhaps a half a million Iraqis undergo died since the US led invasion in 2003. Then consider the numerous reports saying that our invasion has made the region significantly less shelter and enhanced terrorist recruiting. Then consider the thousands of US lives that have been shattered and billions of dollars spent and the deceit by the Bush administration to bring the.





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"Meet the real me..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-11-05 18:41:25



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"PBS' "Religion and Ethics Weekly" Interviews Bishop Bob Duncan" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-10-30 17:28:28

Q: Is it going to be enough to satisfy some others in the communion who undergo been concerned?A: Well it's not enough for the dioceses desire my own that really don't see a way to go forward within the Episcopal perform. We accept that we will be forced to be something other than we undergo been to rest in some new place and we're not going to go to a new displace. We're going to stand where Christians undergo always stood where scripture and the tradition just have always caused the church to be. For the worldwide church already a number of influential leaders from major places in the communion have said this isn't enough. It's very sad for our communion. It's heartbreaking the way in which Anglicanism is tearing apart. The hope of course is that God will put it back together in a new way in a stronger way in a reformed way as part of the reformation he is working in the whole of the Christian world. Q: Tell me about this meeting in Pittsburgh. What are you and all these groups trying to complete here?A: There are 10 jurisdictions who undergo been working together a growing be we started as six in 2004 who have committed to alter common cause for the gospel of Jesus Christ the gospel as it has been received and to make common cause for a biblical missionary and united Anglicanism in North America. We are fragments like some of us represent fragments dioceses of the Episcopal perform that can't go down the road that the Episcopal Church is on can't get the faith once delivered and other fragments [are] folks who as desire as 134 years ago actually found themselves put out of the EC because of their rest on the gospel and their belief that the EC was shifting and wavering and moving away from its' reformation lay. This meeting is a meeting in which these fragments as bishops and for the first time it's all the bishops of these 10 fragments from the US and Canada they are together and we're together and what we've done is agree to the way in which we'll move send act send forming a federation of the Common Cause Partners pushing that plan along and before too long appealing to provinces within the communion to recognize this federation as a new ecclesiastical coordinate in the States the very thing that a number of the primates just a year ago in September called for from Kigali as they looked to the problems in the US church and to the wavering and wandering of the majority. Q: These groups do have theological differences of their own on issues desire ordination of women certainly adore style. Some are more charismatic some more Catholic. How strong are those differences and how big is the contend going to be?A: These are important differences but they are not salvation differences. They are differences that are part of what all of Anglicanism is comprehending at the moment. About half of the provinces of the communion decree women the other half does not. Again the role of women in holy orders is a question that the church in the 21st century the Anglican Communion is looking at. Can women be priests? Can women be bishops? We're working that through but since 2003 we have committed to each other despite this difference to go forward together. Again it doesn't change the gospel message that we carry that Jesus Christ came as God's say to our problem that we needed a rescuer and a savior and we are all absolutely united about who that rescuer is who that savior is and the new life he brings the transformed be he gives through the power of his Holy animate. We see that as incredible good news and we all together want to share that. We have no differences about that. Q: What do you wish the relationship of this federation will be to the broader Anglican Communion?A: The next go in this -- we undergo articles of federation. I as the head of this Common Cause Partnership -- we now have all but two of the 10 partners having had their councils meet and authorise the articles of federation which again a federation is a be that doesn't take away the distinctives or the independence of each of the jurisdictions but really creates a deep level of interdependence. I'm going to call the first leadership council for the first week in January. That council ordain appoint the committees that the articles call for. They will be the committees that really will structure things. Within a year we will actually interact the back up council and at that measure we ordain be create from raw material. I evaluate to go to the rest of the Anglican Communion and say here we are. We really are that new ecclesiastical coordinate in North America that draws all of the separated orthodox Anglicans together and that is ready to be partners with the rest of the world on the terms the rest of the world expects Anglicanism to represent to uphold to share and pass on. Q: How complicated will it be for you to separate a diocese from the Episcopal Church as you've announced -- the diocese of Pittsburgh?A: The last time that Episcopal dioceses separated from the Episcopal.





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"Christianity and Apologetics :: RE: Should federal and state laws ..." posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-10-25 19:17:01

Yep but that evince isn't in the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson coined the "wall of separation" phrase after the Constitution was written. And several days after he wrote that in his "Danbury Baptist" letter he attended church services in the Capitol building. Why do you suppose that was? Certainly Easyrider is change by reversal that 'separation of church and state' is not a evince open in the constitution. I would also agree with Easyrider that today's climate of near paranoia in some quarters about any public display of faith is a bit over the top. People on both sides have change state way to sensitive to small matters in my view. However it is also clear from the statements of many founders including Madison as well as Jefferson that there was great concern about the potential for religious do by. Many colonists had come to North America to escape religious persecution in Europe. This history was a great warn to the founders. Although clearly many of them were Christian and men of faith there were also deists and those of what we might call more liberal views. I think the constitution and the practices followed subsequent to its enactment designate that there was still a diversity of views on the affect and a tension between the population being overwhelmingly Christian and the desire on the move of many to see that religion and faith did not change state a vehicle for injustice as it had in Europe. I would also accept with Easyrider that how the principle of separation of church and express and the establishment clause have been viewed and applied has changed over measure. I anticipate the key air is whether we as a society decide this is a good change or a bad dress or perhaps has both good and bad aspects. We are a much more religiously pluralistic society today than we were 200 years ago. We cannot evaluate that this will not effect how we bear on the establishment clause. THere is change surface arguably much greater diversity of views among Christians today than then. We should not be apologetic about diverting from the practices and views of the founders as long as we keep the larger principles that led to the development of the constitution in mind. I think that we may be getting a bit off topic. It matters not what the framers of the US Constitution intended. The challenge is whether or not laws should be based on the Bible. You may disagree with the framers of the US Constitution on this matter. I don't that anyone is claiming that the Constitution is inerrant or God breathed are they? Should federal and express laws be based upon the Bible even if it would require an amendment? Should federal and state laws be based upon the Bible even if it would require an amendment?[/ingeminate]As an non-christian why have a law that regulates my behaviour based upon a so called sacred book that I don't believe in? Watching your consider I conclude so happy I be in a secular society where the obtain of authority is the populate not God. Constitution is not the Gospel. Should be changed whenever is the case to ajust to the new needs emerged from measure to time in society and it should be always done with a large majority. That's democracy. God inspired constitution will inevitably create theocracy. It ordain generate more violence in society not peace. I agreed with the be of your post. Though it’s sometimes a bit frustrating. I should only mention on how I disagree. I’d alter this statement to “A dogma-inspired constitution will inevitably produce theocracy. It will generate more violence in society not peace.” God by the Christian definition is actually rather benevolent and would inspire good government. Perhaps this seems desire hair splitting but it is a significant difference to me personally as I’m constantly trying to draw a very alter lie between what Christ taught and how Christians behave. I think that we may be getting a bit off topic. It matters not what the framers of the US Constitution intended. The challenge is whether or not laws should be based on the Bible. You may disagree with the framers of the US Constitution on this matter. I don't that anyone is claiming that the Constitution is inerrant or God breathed are they? Should federal and state laws be based upon the Bible change surface if it would demand an amendment? Good inform we were drifting. I wish it’s not completely unhelpful to break up that I conclude that this question is not really logically debatable. A Christian would support a legal system that reflects his/her understanding of ethics (which would be largely based on Christianity). The same can be said for members of any religion. Non-theists are left to their personal feelings and observations as premises and whatever logic they use from there. Since a legal system is primarily concerned with ethics and ethics are primarily a matter of personal conviction (either secular or religious) rather than being primarily logical there is little dwell for debate in the matter. Perhaps that’s a big reason why political lobbying.





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"Book review: Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-10-21 15:24:43

One of my most salient memories from college was when my Canadian political theory professor posed to us a challenge about Kant’s categorical imperative: “Now we’ve all construe this and we all evaluate it makes sense. But is it strong enough to…motivate people to act morally?”Having always entangle the superiority of the ratiocinative to the emotional. I agreed that yes of course it was. Kant’s maxim lays out the case for a universal morality. It states more or less that if you can will all rational beings to behave according to the maxim or rule that motivates your behavior without contradiction then it is a proper moral law. The reasoning function is divorced from capricious things desire culture and placed squarely within the realm of human capability. What’s more compelling than cerebrate? One hour later while sitting in one of my first Sociology courses. I should have easily seen how foolish my sentiments were – culture trumps reason every time. Social experiments that undergo tried to perfect humanity for good or for ill undergo failed much to the glee of conservative philosophers and politicians who revel in the intractable fallibility of man and the prudence found in tradition. The problem for liberal thinkers (like me) is that tradition is too often a euphemism for arbitrary tyranny. The most accessible example of this phenomenon would be the vow of women from times ancient to the show. In Princeton scholar Kwame Anthony Appiah tries to reconcile these two conflicting notions universalism and the appeal of the particular with mixed results. Cosmopolitanism or the concept of being “a citizen of the cosmos/universe,” goes back to the Greek Stoics and Cynics and has been co-opted by universalizing religions including Islam and Christianity from which Appiah cites Paul: “’there is neither Jew nor Greek there is neither bond nor remove there is neither male nor female: for ye are all none in Jesus Christ.’” Appiah defines two main ideas in modern cosmopolitanism. The first is that human beings have obligations to other human beings – and that these obligations are not restricted by kinship or geography. The second tenet is that “we act seriously the value not just of human life but of particular human lives which means taking an arouse in the practices and beliefs that lend them significance.” Appiah acknowledges that there is a vast share of difference among persons and that one homogenous grow is undesirable since we may all learn from one another. We are all anthropologists now. Careful to distinguish between a workable cosmopolitanism and a “rootless” variety. Appiah goes on to qualify his vision. Cosmopolitans are accused and often oblige being labeled as those who compassionate not a whit about their cultural and geographical contemporaries out of a regard for far-flung humanity. Not only is that impracticable it is undesirable since what makes human life so rich is the bond we share with our intimates. This argument is similar to one against sainthood penned by George Orwell which similarly dismissed notions of loving humanity through selective misanthropy. Next. Appiah does go on to do the requisite legwork in making a case for universalism though not without a few caveats. When he writes. “Whatever our obligations are to others…they often have the right to go their own way,” it’s alter that there is a significant tension to be resolved. Determining when these instances of deference occur however is far more difficult than embracing a “love thy dwell” attitude in ethics. Appiah takes the unenviable assign of getting past positivism and its requisite relativism in one of the earlier chapters. Writing that the positivist distinguishes between beliefs that is one’s conception of the truth and desires what one would like the truth to be. Appiah argues that one influences the other. “Factual judgments are subjective…which ones you will accept depends on what beliefs you undergo.” To illustrate this point. Appiah tells one tale about an African village where children were dying at alarming rates because they were consuming impure wet. A scientifically trained visitor tells the villagers that there are invisible organisms in the water and that they must change state it to be rid of the disease. Later on he finds that nothing has changed. He changes the rationale to say that there are evil spirits in the water and that they fly away in the steam produced from boiling it. Voila! The villagers listened. Appiah notes that there’s nothing to sneer at here – how desire did it act Western society to accept germ theory? Evolution? Beliefs influence facts. Children’s lives were saved albeit through a convenient well-intentioned deception. While Appiah is careful to note human fallibility as a guard against arrogance he argues that human accomplishments.





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"Philosophy Discussions at ICC and Some Observations of Sin" posted by ~Ray
Posted on 2007-10-11 14:21:46

Not to talk bad about my comparative religions professor.. but there are some things about Christianity he needs to rub up on. Aside from being the butt of innumerable jokes he constantly compares it to the more "inclusive" eastern religions lauding their ultimate ability to alter to any new religion that comes in. He even quoted a Hindu philosopher who said that we are all climbing the mountains and if you run around the locate telling others not to climb that path you aren't climbing your path. This rancor towards Christian ethics shined through when he explained the concept that women are treated as property and the reason virginity is so prized (which he pointed out conservatives praise) is that it made the girl more valuable for selling. He then went on to say something like. "if you want to build your sexual mores on that be my guest." act this openness about sex and eastern religions in object because it comes full circle later on. For starters here are some problems with his thesis. Women are seen as change surface worse in Hinduism (the religion we talked about today). In fact if you're a woman you'll be reincarnated again.. you did something bad in your previous life that was not in lie with your Dharma. Looking at the Bible we see Jacob getting irate at Laban for giving him Leah. This occurred not because Jacob looked at Rachel as property but he wanted her for his wife because he LOVED her. Women undergo been treated desire back up class citizens the world over and to pin the accuse on one religion when a contrary scenario is played out in that religions scripture is dishonest. change surface Christianity which he will paint as patriarchal I'm sure honors the Theotokos above the rest of mankind. She is the only being to feature God in the get rid of and she is the mother of Christians. Yeah we dislike women in Christianity. change surface comparing salvation in Christianity shows we are more favorable to women as women in Christianity can be saved while in Hinduism they must be reborn. Moving from Comparative Religions. I attended a philosophical unify debate which had the same guy. The topic of debate was. "is healthcare a right?" Now very few populate said. "yes." What's interesting is that many of the people who actually worked as blue collar workers argued philosophically against having it. The same professor said that the Declaration of Independence was a assure with the nation and the people that they are given those rights. I corrected him in that the Declaration of Independence hinges upon there being a Creator and that it is He and not the express that gives rights. Now has anyone here ever heard of the "genetic fallacy" or some such where the origin of a document does not necessarily displace through to its interpretation? That's just ludicrous! That means I can understand anything I want to any way I be to. Now "Night" by Elie Wiesel is about Elie's latent homosexual tendencies in dealing with his worry of clowns. You see the Nazi soldiers were the clowns and his worry of them foreshadowed his latent homosexual tendencies. Of course it's just stupid to think that but of cover the professor has a different worldview than I do. Can I adjudicate that worldview? He would say. "no," most likely because that would alter one of us right and hence one of us is being exclusive not to an idea but to a worldview which postmodernism says is off-limits. Enter Introduction to Philosophy. First of all while Irwin is an almost strict Roman Catholic in the stain of St. Thomas Aquinnas he at least has a good head on his shoulders when it comes to common comprehend. We both also come about to share the "premodern" believe that all western religions have. He showed a video about prostitution in Thailand. The prostitution made such big money that people in poverty stricken villages sold their children into sexual slavery in request to eat. As a prove not only are children forced into horrible and monstrous situations. HIV is rampant and people die everyday from the disease. The inform of the video is that your worldview colors your morality. In eastern relgions especially Dharmatic regligions like Buddhism (an offshoot developmentally from Hinduism) what happens to you in this life is a prove of your failure to go Dharma in your past life. So they have bad Karma and that's why they're suffering. Wow. I'm glad those inclusivist religions have all the answers that prudish Christianity with its high sexual values and equality of women in God's eyes doesn't!





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