“Animals seem to function extraordinarily well on their instincts and their senses. To a large degree they have community — ants bees all the way up to primates. There is an extraordinary amount of communication we can witness in animals and they are undeniably superior to us in one manner: They don’t go around slaughtering one another in huge numbers. We know that animals left to themselves are not going to destroy the universe. But we could”
First were his thoughts on the Bible a man-written book Christians elevate to holy status because it tells them to (it’s funny because it’s true). I’ve always found the notion of the Bible as being infallible to be perhaps the weakest point about Christianity and one of the main reasons I could never accept it as valid. But Mailer a self-described Christian has a much different view of the Bible one that makes much more sense to me than the typical Christian ideal.
This sounds right to me. If there is a God there’s little reason for Him to cryptically structure everything into a book especially in the manner in which the Bible is written. It makes much more sense that a group of men wrote the Bible with their own motivations in mind. Then they say. “You can’t question the Bible because the Bible tells you not to question the Bible.”
Then. Mailer gets into morality and ethics a subject close to the hearts of some of my commenters of the Christian persuasion. Several of my commenters seem to believe that religious people have the market cornered on morality and that Atheists have no reason not to go on a killing spree this afternoon. The only reason we don’t presumably is because we’re too busy getting abortions marrying members of our own sex and filling children’s heads with the evils of evolution. Mailer of course has a different take.
That doesn’t mean we can help God by establishing a set of principles to live by. We can’t. Why not? Because the principles vary. The cruelest obstacle to creating one’s own ethic is that no principle is incorruptible. Indeed to cleave a principle is to corrupt oneself. To shift from one principle to another can however be promiscuous. Life is not simple. Ethics are almost incomprehensible but they exist. There is a substratum of moderate quiet good feeling. Generally if I’m doing things in such a way that the sum of all my actions at the moment seems to be feasible and responsible and decent that certainly gives me a better feeling than if I am uneasy dissatisfied with myself and not liking myself.”
In the end. I can appreciate what Mailer is doing. This is the type of God the type of religion that I would want to believe in if I were in the “Searching for religion” market. Mailer’s notion of God makes sense to me. It hits home with me in a way that typical Christianity certainly does not.
On the other hand it sounds to me like he’s another in a long line of people who is basically making up his own religion. He didn’t like what he heard from the basic roots of Christianity so he went in his own direction. I don’t have a problem with that since I think pretty much any religion is just as likely as the next whether one or 10 billion people believe it but it does seem almost like cheating. Of course. I do think Christians could benefit from taking his thoughts seriously. His manner of believing does eliminate a lot of the major flaws in the Christian faith and makes it a tent under which I think plenty more people would like to sit.
“First were his thoughts on the Bible a man-written book Christians elevate to holy status because it tells them to (it’s funny because it’s true). I’ve always found the notion of the Bible as being infallible to be perhaps the weakest point about Christianity and one of the main reasons I could never accept it as valid.”
I’m not too concerned about Mailer because like your fear of commenting on Islam. I don’t know him well enough. However your comment about why Christians believe Scripture struck me as odd. We don’t elevate Scripture to any particular status because ‘it tells us too.’ Where does it say that? We accept the Scripture as true (and infallible) because it tells us of the Lord who was crucified and resurrected. Our acceptance of the Bible–that supposedly ‘man-written’ book–is based on the cross. If the Bible didn’t contain testimony to the cross an utter embarassment and defeating event in the Christian faith. I wouldn’t accept it either. It is the Cross that makes Scripture what Scripture is. Nothing more. Nothing less.
PS-the Scripture’s own testimony concerning itself (which means what the authors of the letters gospels and histories say about what they are writing) is that it was not written by mere men. It says. ‘all Scripture is God-breathed’ and also. ‘the prophets spoke as they were carried along by the Spirit.’ And there is more but that is a start.
You wrote: “We accept the Scripture as true (and infallible) because it tells us of the Lord who was crucified and resurrected. Our acceptance of the Bible–that supposedly ‘man-written’ book–is based on the cross.”
“Acceptance” of the Bible and declaring the Bible infallible and beyond reproach are two completely different standards. Just because it has accounts of the crucifixion shouldn’t make every word in the book true; yet that’s what the vast majority of Christians I’ve met believe: the Bible is the “Word of God” and thus is beyond reproach.
I know you are a student of all things Christian and I hate to be so blunt but as a Christian one who has been to college attends seminary preaches the Gospel every week and studies the Scripture every day I can say with confidence that you are wrong. The Scripture teaches about the condition of humans–we are sinners all–and what God did to rescue sinners from this condition (although ‘condition’ is far too therapeutic to really make sense of what Christ did.) It is an historical fact that Jesus was crucified. This is testified to independent of the Bible. Do you disagree with the Bible’s assessment of the human condition? Judging by your ‘who I am’ blurb above. I would say no.
My point is that the story of the Scripture is full of all the failures of humans. All the characters had their issues with sin. And the New Testament church is often portrayed as weak full of problems (or else the letters would not have been written) persecuted tormented by those opposed and in the minority. And what’s worse it shows how Jesus was crucified in weakness. The book rarely celebrates the triumphs of humanity and instead shows everything that is wrong with us and all that God did to save us from ourselves. In my estimation a book written by mere human beings would not have recorded the history of man in all his inglorious state. And it surely would not have included the story of the cross.
To (hopefully) clarify: The vast majority of Christians I have come in contact with (which is a pretty large number) believe in the infallibility of the Bible which they believe to be the “Word of God.” There is no reason outside the Bible to believe any of this. Hence my statement that they believe the Bible is infallible because the Bible says it is.
I’ve said this before. Richard Leo Jackson didn’t deny it in earlier comments; he just said something about the Bible’s infallibility being the same sort of “starting point” that any belief system must have.
No. I don’t want to. The bottom line is that you believe what you believe and frankly it is rather pointless to argue with you. I think it would take pages to demonstrate why I believe the Bible to be the Word of God and I know you don’t like long replies (which is why I gave the short version above and will repeat it below.) The Bible doesn’t use words like ‘infallible’ and ‘inerrancy’ to describe itself. It uses words like ‘Word of God’. ‘thus sayeth the Lord’. ‘God-breathed’. ‘carried along by the Spirit,’ and ‘Scripture cannot be broken.’ I accept this testimony because Jesus accepted it and because I accept the testimony of the cross (which I’ll explain below.)
The point of my previous reply was simple: If the Bible described man as a triumphant master of his own fate a gloriously well-rounded superman and God as one who gave us all we wanted apart from the cross you wouldn’t have any trouble accepting it. But since the Bible describes the human condition as contingent weak sinful and desperate and God as holy and demanding of justice righteousness and propitiation you reject it. If the Bible were full of stories of people fixing themselves or pulling themselves up by the bootstraps if it described sin as fun acceptable and God as less than demanding of moral righteoueness and perfection you would have no problem believing it. I’m not sure how to explain why it is that I accept it for exactly the opposite reasons. But probably this is why I said. “Do you accept the Bible’s assessment of the human condition?”)
That is what I was saying. My contention is that the stories the Bible tells demonstrates it is from God. God tells us the truth about our condition–a condition we either want to deny or exalt in. The Bible tells us we cannot save ourselves that God is righteous and that we are in desperate need of a Savior. Hence the cross. My point is that it is the cross that demonstrates the Bible’s veracity and God-breathed-ness. If the Scripture told me any other story I would question it’s divine origins. It is this ‘foolishness’ of the cross (see 1 Corinthians 1-2) that leads me in the direction I have taken.
Jeff. I will here and now deny that the reason I believe the Bible to be infallible or the Word of God is because It says so. The real reason anyone ultimately believes in the truth of the Bible is because God the Holy Spirit causes them to believe it. Acts chapter 16 verse 14 tells us that God opened the heart of Lydia to heed the words spoken by Paul. I also never wondered why you didn’t just go out on a killing spree and chalk it up to a busy schedule consisting of abortion same-sex marriage or prosetlying the Darwinian evolutionary gospel. I merely pointed out that you have no ethical system to prevent it. How can you? By your own admission above you say “everything is conditional.” If everything is conditional there must at least be some conditions under which even the most dehumanizingly evil hateful perverted or sadistic attrocities can be permissable and even rationalized to be justified by man. Perhaps the Japanese felt this true about the Rape of Nanking? Well LOVE is not conditional! God is Love and those who abide in love abide in God. A careful look at your posts and comments on this blog will show a great many absolutest statements on your part. For some example. God is not interested in sports or you don’t need a book to teach you right from wrong. I could go on but these demonstrate your penchant to making statements withouty any proof. For someone who doesn’t believe in absolutes you sure love you some absolute statements. RLJ
Depends on what you mean by “ethical system.” Seems a rather vague bit of phrasing to me. You have a God. I don’t. Therefore you have an “ethical system,” and I don’t. I suppose is your rationale. Of course this seems to depend on the idea that people need rewards in the afterlife for behaving on Earth. And that they need everything written down for them as if they’re automatons.
You wrote: “If everything is conditional there must at least be some conditions under which even the most dehumanizingly evil hateful perverted or sadistic attrocities can be permissable and even rationalized to be justified by man. Perhaps the Japanese felt this true about the Rape of Nanking?”
I think your statement is probably true. I may not be able to come up with the conditions under which an act might be permissible but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Is it OK to kill someone who is about to kill you? What if they’re about to kill your wife? What if they’re about to kill some random person on the street? What if you’re a soldier and they’re just on the other side of the war?
What if you think someone is going to try to kill you (or attack your country)? Is pre-emptive killing murder or just killing? Or are you just “protecting yourselves your families the weak and the country”? What if it turns out you were wrong? Is it the intention that matters or the reality? What if someone has killed hundreds of people but he hasn’t killed anyone in 10 years? Is the death penalty OK in this case? Is the death penalty ever OK? What if the person is never going to commit another crime?
The Bible my friend is only simplistic in regards to morality when we are obtuse and refuse to take its councel. It adresses all athical situations. The Bible does not repeat the commandments ad infinitum ad naseum such as: Thou shalt wear a red shirt thou shalt wear a green shirt etc…. The Westminster Confession puts it thusly: Chapter I.6: “The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory man’s salvation faith and life is either EXPRESSLY set down in Scripture or by good and necessary consequence may be DEDUCED from Scripture…”I sincerely applaud your particular questions. Jeff. At last you have put forth true concerns. A preemptive killing is indeed murder. As for intention or reality. “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Jesus warned His disciples that a day would come when people would try to kill them and believe they were doing God a favor. It doesn’t matter if a person is “cured” and even grown to be a philanthropic pillar of his or her communitty and a paragon of altruistic virtue. A killer who hasn’t killed in a LONG time still must pay for his perfidious deeds. The death penalty is indeed okay and in fact commanded by God for as necessary for maintaining a safe civilization. The old humanistic liberal saw says. “Killing So and So won’t bring back his/her victims.” No it won’t but it will prevent any future victims from existing. Finally. Jeff a famous man once said. I must paraphrase. “It is said that capital punishment is the sign of a barbaric society. I tell you that the true sign of a barbaric society is NOT capital punishment itself but that such DRASTIC measures should be needed.” In love and peace RLJ
But back to the topic at hand… does no one watch Animal Planet? Seriously go watch a few episodes of ‘Meerkat Manor’ and then tell me that animals don’t go around slaughtering each other. They do it all the time. All the time! It’s common for one group of animals to invade each other’s territory and attack and kill each other for some of the same reasons that we do it: better land better food supply better access to water and natural resources. It’s common for the head of a group to kill the offspring of a family member within the group to ensure its place of power. It’s common for animals to eat their own offspring. If food is in short supply then they will drive out the weaker members of the group and eat their offspring because it ensures that the stronger members will have a better chance of survival. But animals are wired to survive and reproduce and if working within a community will help them achieve that goal that’s what they do not because they’re particularly interested in promoting community and harmony.
And while it’s true that meerkats will probably not blow up the world I don’t think that humans are truly capable of doing it either (unless we manage to create a Death Star). We can certainly wipe out our own species and several others but even if we cause some crazy nuclear winter there will still be species that will survive and thrive and carry on. Ice ages and meteors and whatever else has changed the face of the planet before and it’s still here.
Sea Hag. Extremely well put! It is obvious that we cannot arrive at moral or ethical norms from the observation of nature alone. I certainly don’t advocate the eating of our off-spring do you? I heartily applaud your views of doing good and spreading love throughout our communitties in practical ways. “Jesus loves you!” may make some poeple feel good but it doesn’t fill an empty stomache. I wonder if these noble sentiments of helping the down and out you so admirably expressed in other comments is shared by the lower orders? I think not! They seek to kill and eliminate the weak and unfruitful. We try to help the less fortunate. Still evolution does teach us we are no more than clever naked apes so maybe Social Darwinism with it genocidal attrocities should be implemented. NOT!!! As Tom Lehrer once sang in his song. WE WILL ALL GO TOGETHER WHEN WE GO,“When the world becomes uranious we will all go simultaneous.” But something will survive even if it is just roaches. We have survived an ice age and meteors. We will survive the deadly onslaught of man’s inhumanity to man as well. Truly. “love does no harm to it’s neighbor therefor love is the fulfillment of the law.” RLJ
Hi-Just found your website via “Et Tu?”I have an honest question? I know atheists can be moral but your morals seems to be based on some variation of the reasoning “because behaving badly makes me feel bad” or “there are consequences in this life to behaving badly” is that right?So one can never say something is objectively wrong is that correct? It’s just illegal or it makes you feel like a heel. But what if it doesn’t make me feel like a heel what if I like being bad? And what if I don’t get caught or convince 50%+1 of the people that bad is good (say killing a certain type of person) and we make killing that type of person legal does that then make it good ok whatever you want to call it?If you’ve already address this somewhere on your site could you direct me to it? I’m not trying to argue just understand your reasoning. Thanks,-B
It’s a good question and one I probably in fact have tackled previously. I lose track though. This morality thing comes up so much that it’s tough to remember where and when I’ve hit on particular answers to particular questions. So I’ll try to come up with something new and clever and interesting this time (and I’ll almost certainly fail).
Blane wrote: “your morals seems to be based on some variation of the reasoning “because behaving badly makes me feel bad” or “there are consequences in this life to behaving badly” is that right?”
I’m not entirely sure about the “makes me feel bad” part but yes definitely the social and legal consequences in this life are the main guide for most people in regards to their behavior. I figure people probably have a certain innate sense of right and wrong but that’s such an abstract concept that it’s difficult to account for. I suspect it’s true but I don’t know that with any certainty.
Not quite no. There are more than just legal consequences in this life. There are all sorts of social consequences. For instance if you treat people like crap you’re probably not going to have many friends. It will likely hurt you in your job and in many other situations. People are social creatures and they have to follow certain social cues to know how to behave around other people. You learn some of that from your parents and some of it from experience.
Blane wrote: “But what if it doesn’t make me feel like a heel what if I like being bad? And what if I don’t get caught or convince 50%+1 of the people that bad is good (say killing a certain type of person) and we make killing that type of person legal does that then make it good ok whatever you want to call it?”
Well. I think the terms “good,” “OK” and pretty much anything else is so relative as to be almost meaningless. In other words. “good” to whom? “OK” to whom? To me? To you? To the person who actually commits the act? It’d be nice for there to be some real objective set of morals on which everyone could agree but that’s not reality. What’s “good” to me might not be “good” to you. Life is complicated. Basically everything is conditional. The closest we can come is legal/illegal. Beyond that notions like right/wrong good/bad. OK/not OK are meaningless in regards to this conversation.
Related article:
http://atheocracy.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/mailer-doesnt-mail-his-faith-in/
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