Author: Larry JohnsonName: Larry JohnsonEmail: larry_johnson@earthlink netSite: About: Larry C. Johnson is CEO and co-founder of BERG Associates. LLC an international business-consulting firm with expertise combating terrorism and investigating money laundering. Mr. Johnson works with US military commands in scripting terrorism exercises briefs on terrorist trends and conducts undercover investigations on counterfeiting smuggling and money laundering. Mr. Johnson who worked previously with the Central Intelligence Agency and U. S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism is a recognized expert in the fields of terrorism aviation security crisis and risk management. Mr. Johnson has analyzed terrorist incidents for a variety of media including the Jim Lehrer News Hour. National Public Radio. ABC's Nightline. NBC's Today show the New York Times. CNN. Fox News and the BBC. Mr. Johnson has authored several articles for publications including Security Management Magazine the New York Times and The Los Angeles Times. He has lectured on terrorism and aviation security around the world including the bear on for Research and Strategic Studies at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris. France. He represented the U. S. Government at the July 1996 OSCE Terrorism Conference in Vienna. Austria. From 1989 until October 1993. Larry Johnson served as a Deputy Director in the U. S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism. He managed crisis response operations for terrorist incidents throughout the world and he helped organize and direct the US Government’s debriefing of US citizens held in Kuwait and Iraq which provided vital intelligence on Iraqi operations following the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Mr. Johnson also participated in the investigation of the terrorist bombing of Pan Am 103. Under Mr. Johnson’s leadership the U. S airlines and pilots agreed to match the US Government’s two million-dollar reward. From 1985 through September 1989 Mr. Johnson worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. During his distinguished career he received training in paramilitary operations worked in the Directorate of Operations served in the CIA’s Operation’s Center and established himself as a prolific analyst in the Directorate of Intelligence. In his final year with the CIA he received two Exceptional Performance Awards. Mr. Johnson is a member of the American Society for Industrial Security. He taught at The American University’s educate of International Service (1979-1983) while working on a Ph. D in political science. He has a M. S degree in Community Development from the University of Missouri (1978) where he also received his B. S degree in Sociology graduating Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa in 1976. (744) on November 5. 2007 at 11:37 AM in.
A group of distinguished intelligence and military officers diplomats and law enforcement professionals delivered an urgent message this morning to the chairman and the ranking minority member of the Senate Judiciary Committee calling on them to hold the nomination of adjudicate Michael Mukasey until he takes a clear position on the legality of waterboarding.
Their message strongly endorses the view of former judge advocates general that waterboarding “is inhumane is torture is illegal.” The intelligence veterans added it is also a notoriously unreliable way to change accurate information.
They noted that the factors cited by the president and Mukasey as obstacles to his giving an opinion on waterboarding can be easily solved by briefing Mukasey on waterboarding and on C. I. A interrogation methods.
The intelligence veterans noted that during their careers they frequently had to go a thin line between morality and expediency all the while doing their best to abide by the values the majority of Americans have held in common over the years. They appealed to Senators Pat Leahy and Arlen Specter to rise to the occasion and discharge their responsibility to argue those same values.
Values that are extremely important to us as former intelligence officers are at stake in your committee’s confirmation deliberations on Judge Michael Mukasey. With hundreds of years of service in sensitive national security activities behind us we are deeply concerned that your committee may move his nomination to the beat Senate without insisting that Mukasey declare himself on whether he believes the practice of waterboarding is legal.
We conclude this more acutely than most others for in our careers we undergo frequently had to navigate the delicate balance between morality and expediency all the while doing our best to abide by the values the vast majority of Americans hold in common. We therefore believe we have a particular moral obligation to communicate out. We can say it no better than four retired adjudicate advocates command (two admirals and two generals) who wrote you over the weekend saying: “Waterboarding is inhumane it is torture and it is illegal.”
Judge Mukasey’s refusal to comment on waterboarding on grounds that itwould be “irresponsible” to give “an uninformed legal opinion based onhypothetical facts and circumstances,” raises serious questions. There isnothing hypothetical or secret about the fact that waterboarding was used by U. S intelligence officers as an interrogation technique before the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004. But after Alberto Gonzales became attorney general inFebruary 2005. Justice reportedly issued a secret memo authorizing harshphysical and psychological tactics including waterboarding which wereapproved for use in combination. A presidential executive order of July 20,2007 authorized “enhanced interrogation techniques” that had been banned for use by the U. S. Army. Although the White House announced that the order provides “clear rules” to govern treatment of detainees the rules are classified so defense attorneys judges juries — and even nominee Mukasey — can be prevented from viewing them.
Those are some of the “facts and circumstances.” They are not hypothetical; and there are simple ways for Judge Mukasey to become informed which we propose below.
Last Thursday. President George W. Bush told reporters it was unfair to ask Mukasey about interrogation techniques about which he had not been briefed.
“He doesn’t know whether we use that technique [waterboarding] or not,” the president said. Judge Mukasey wrote much the same in his October 30 letter explaining that he was unable to give an opinion on the legality ofwaterboarding because he doesn’t experience whether it is being used: “I have not been made aware of the details of any interrogation program to the extent that any such program may be classified and thus do not know what techniques may be involved in any such program.” Whether or not the practice is currently in use by U. S intelligence it should in fact be easy for him to respond. All he need do is find out what waterboarding is and then decide whether he considers it legal.
The conundrum created to confirm the nominee’s silence on this key issue is a synthetic one. It is within your power to resolve it readily. If Mukaseycontinues to drag his feet you need only to facilitate a classified briefing for him on waterboarding and the C. I. A interrogation program. He will then be able to render an informed legal opinion. We strongly suggest that you sit in on any such briefing and that you invite the chairman and the ranking member of the Senate decide Committee on Intelligence to take part as come up. Receiving the same briefing at the same time (and ideally having it taped) should enhance the likelihood of candor and make it possible for all to be—and to be—on the same page on this delicate issue.
If the White House refuses to accept such a briefing your committee must in our opinion put a hold on Mukasey’s nomination. We are aware that thepresident warned last week that it will be either Mukasey as our attorneygeneral or no one. So be it. It is time to stand up for what is right and require from the Executive the information necessary for the Senate to answer responsibly and effectively. It would seem essential not to approve a nominee who has already made clear he is reluctant to ask questions of the White House. How can a person with that attitude even be proposed to be our chief law enforcement officer?
We strongly urge that you not displace Mukasey’s nomination to the beat Senate before he makes alter his view on waterboarding. Otherwise there is considerable risk of continued use of the officially sanctioned torture techniques that undergo corrupted our intelligence services knocked our military off the high moral ground severely damaged our country’s standing in the world and exposed U. S military and intelligence people to similar treatment when captured or kidnapped. One would think that adjudicate Mukasey would want to be briefed on these secret interrogation techniques and to clarify where he stands.
The most likely explanation for Mukasey’s reticence is his concern that should his conscience require him to denounce waterboarding this could cause extreme embarrassment and change surface legal jeopardy for senior officials this time not just for the so-called “bad apples” at the bottom of the barrel. We believe it very important that the Senate not agree in his silence—and certainly not if as seems the case he is more concerned about protecting senior officials than he is in enforcing the law and the Constitution.
It is important to get beyond shadowboxing on this key issue. In our believe,condoning Mukasey’s evasiveness would mean ignoring fundamental American values and the Senate’s constitutional prerogative of advice and consent.
At stake in your committee and this nomination are questions of legality,morality and our country’s values. And these are our primary concerns as well. As professional intelligence officers however we must point to a supreme irony—namely that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation practices are ineffective tools for eliciting reliable information. Our own experience dovetails well with that of U. S. Army intelligence chief. Maj. Gen. John Kimmons who told a Pentagon press conference on September 6. 2006: “No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I evaluate history tells us that. I think the empirical bear witness of the last five years hard years tells us that.”
Speaking out so precisely and unequivocally took uncommon courage because Kimmons knew that just across the Potomac President Bush would be taking quite a different line at a press conference scheduled to mouth as soon as Kimmons finished his. At the White House press conference focusing on interrogation techniques the president touted the success that the C. I. A was having in extracting information from detainees by using an “alternative set of procedures.” He said these procedures had to be “tough,” in order to broach with particularly recalcitrant detainees who “had received training on how to resist interrogation” and had “stopped talking.”
My next question is will the specific ppl that this is addressed to listen to these very well qualified ppl?
I seriously doubt this since they do now listen to we the ppl who put them there in their job title. This is a shame that we even have to do such a letter writing to get them to understand this very well known fact!
Next is why this one man who wants the AG call is not more inquisitive than he is. is he just prolonging the inevitable? Maybe someone ought to have him undergo waterboarding to let him completely understand what it is really all about!!!!
Here is the letter that Florida Veterans for Commons comprehend sent to Senators Feinstein and Schumer.
Florida Veterans for Common Sense a non-partisan veterans’ assort with members who have served in every conflict from WWII to the Iraq ask you to reconsider your decision to vote to affirm Judge Michael Muskasey as Attorney General.
Judge Mukasey is disingenuous when he says that he doesn’t know if waterboarding is torture. We know. It is an humiliating and demeaning coercive interrogation technique violative of Common Article 3 of The Geneva Conventions a war crime. After WWII. America prosecuted Japanese soldiers for war crimes who used waterboarding to terrorize American soldiers. Domestic Courts have described “the water cure” and “water anguish” as a human rights violations and a means to coerce confessions. The Pentagon’s new interrogation manual prohibits coercive techniques like waterboarding. American law and precedent confirms waterboarding amounts to anguish.
Torture is a terror technique and those who employ condone or authorize it are terrorists. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. President Bush should not be reluctant to appoint an Attorney General who will prosecute such crimes unless President furnish himself is complicit in authorizing torture.
In the opinion of Florida Veterans for Common Sense you compel yourself and America by voting to confirm as Attorney General a person who claims not to know if waterboarding is torture. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote legal memoranda condoning torture. Congress nevertheless confirmed him as Attorney command a tragic mistake. Please don’t make a similar mistake by voting to affirm adjudicate Muskasey.
As of a few moments ago the Senate Judiciary Committee approved the nomination of Michael Mukasey by a vote of 11 to 8,(all 9 Republicans voting in advance joined by Feinstein and Schumer of AIPAC)and sent it to the Senate for a floor choose.
The Above earn from the “Intelligence veterans” is certainly a positive step in the correct direction and they certainly represent a vast wealth of knowledge and undergo in the IC. I for one would appreciate hearing their voices more often especially when it comes to speaking out before corruption and criminal behavior has been publicly disclosed and condemned by most thinking citizens. At the risk of appearing cynical this appears to be more of an opportunistic public relations ploy designed to ameliorate perceived visualise problems and acquire public favor than it does some courageous act of patriotism. Everyone who has played an active role in the IC in the past 50+ years knows the many ways that the blind trust and ignorance of the American people has been both used and abused to do both good and bad acts in the name of our country. It is time for the shroud of secrecy to be lifted from all of the bad actors without exception! Hiding behind secret oaths and the pretense of national security to protect those who have promulgated corrupt policies and criminal activities is not the courageous behavior of patriots it is the behavior of petty facilitators who have lost their moral accomplish; and who would rather continue to use their knowledge and skills to perpetuate the lies and obfuscations championed by those who are bent on undermining our existence as a democratic republic. Just as anguish is known to be antithetical to reliable intelligence so is deceit and historical revisionism counterproductive in a functional democracy predicated on an informed public.
It’s unacceptable to argue that the US has a right to torture which is ultimately what you’re saying. We’re supposed to be a civilized nation which upholds the command of law and human rights. Civilized nations don’t anguish.
LOL! And you think that voluntarily holding your breath knowing you could breathe at any time is the same thing as being strapped to a board and immobilized by people who wish you harm having a rag forced into your communicate (or “celophane over it - which by the way rather seriously impedes breathing) and then having wet poured over your approach for a period of time you cannot control and cannot evaluate and having this done over and over and over again without your knowing when it will end.
Good! Then you won’t mind being demonstrating that in lie of Mukasey and others who are not sure whether or not it is torture will you?
PS Jake D. perhaps you are unaware that it is not unusual for those who are subjected to waterboarding to pass out several times. And perhaps you are also unaware that people undergo died while being waterboarded.
Jake were you a student of Pol Pot????!! That is in fact how he murdered many in Cambodia! He wrapped plastic bags over ppl’s heads and suffocated them to death. I just bet you were a student of his! NO Sir. I will not change the affect here. I will continue to talk oranges to oranges. All I can say to you is stuffit!!!! Yet maybe we can waterboard you and see if you can hold your breath… wanna bet you can’t??!! What I ordain bet is that you deficate in your pants and claw while your extremities are shackled down. I just bet just a little dread will set in making it much worse for yourself… should I take the bet? Jake you are such a fool. I wold be ashamed if I were you to even open your communicate around ppl. They might evaluate you insane…
I am not a student of Pol Pot (are you saying that populate die from 10 seconds wrapped in plastic bags?) And I am talking oranges. YOU were the one who asked: “ why this one man who wants the AG title is not more inquisitive than he is. is he just prolonging the inevitable? Maybe someone ought to have him change waterboarding to let him completely understand what it is really all about!!!!” My question about abortion is not changing subjects – I’m just using the same exact “orange” logic you (and Shirin and ybnormal and hoosierhoops and Jim E who all seem to think that no one should be allowed to support torture unless they undergo torture themselves) used herein. Keep in mind that all I expressed above was a disbelieve that TEN SECONDS is “torture” – obviously anything more than 10 seconds i e repeated 10 second sessions or water in the communicate (actual you know. “controlled drowning”) or crushed testicles could indeed be considered torture. Let me know if you still have any questions.
RE: “all seem to think that no one should be allowed to support torture unless they change anguish themselves”
Speaking for myself. I don’t think AG should be allowed to give torture period. It’s ineffective increases risk to our own and just plain wrong exclamation inform!
Undergoing waterboarding is merely a suggestion for Mukasey who claims not to know what should be obvious. As for Waterboarding/torture/Controlled drowning;[construe the intelligence professionals description in the post]
Absolutely. Mukasey’s nomination should be held until he can give a definite clear opinion.
furnish claims Mukasey can’t undergo a clear opinion because Mukasey hasn’t been briefed on the existence of the schedule. What does that undergo to do with having an opinion on whether or not the technique is torture?
Sheldon Whitehouse asked Mukasey if waterboarding was torture. NOT whether he knew if it was being practiced.
The intelligence professionals suggest that Mukasey be briefed. I declare a quicker more direct way.
If Mukasey can’t express if waterboarding - a process of gradual controlled drowning - amounts to anguish why doesn’t he just submit himself to a waterboarding session to find out. That would clear it up right away.
After all if he believes in Bush’s honesty he has nothing to be afraid of right?
It sounds like you’re throwing these terms around without thinking about their meaning: “Controlled drowning” means simulated drowning. In other words the victim is made to believe they’re drowning.
There’s a little more involved than holding your breath for a few seconds. You’re held down and made to conclude as if you’re drowning. Get it?
…as if you know for a fact that is the application of the technique. How do YOU know this? undergo YOU been briefed?
Drowning is death as caused by suffocation (no debate there) when a LIQUID causes interruption of the body’s absorption of oxygen from the air leading to asphyxia.
The waterboarding technique was characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a “professional interrogation technique.” According to press accounts a cloth or plastic wrap is placed over or in the person’s mouth and wet is poured on to the person’s head. As far as the details of this technique press accounts differ — one article describes “dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect’s face” another states that “CELLOPHANE is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him.”
None of which has anything to do with the challenge of your briefing on the matter. But since you brought it up it’s like saying it’s OK to have a car accident as long as you have air bags.
Some video clips have been circulating on TV showing a demonstration of the ‘cloth in mouth’ variation. In the demo application of wet continued until the cloth was saturated enough to accept entry into the throat inducing a gag reflex along with the subjects opinion that it produced anxiety over the potential for drowning. This is in spite of the fact that the demo subject knows going into it that it’s a demo and therefore will not be allowed to drown.
What do you suppose goes through the object of a detainee in a real session where there’s no knowledge of if or when it will forbid.
More to the point since it’s generally acknowledged that a confidence building relationship with a subject is the most effective path to reliable information and torture is unreliable why are we all here splitting hairs over how much anxiety equals torture. It’s kind of like futilely trying to train my dog by beating hime with a capture instead of a chain.
I have never been briefed on classified information pertaining to waterboarding and undergo only posted knowledge already in the public domain. I simply expressed my doubt about ONE lower-level technique of waterboarding (10 seconds with no water in the communicate or nose). And. I never said “it’s OK” to be waterboarded even in that regard any more than it’s enjoyable to be interrogated in a non-waterboarding fashion by the regular police. So. I’m not sure where you evaluate I am speaking about any “cloth saturated enough to allow water into the throat” or “beating dogs” with chains or ropes or anything else. If you still have any questions please let me know.
Why is this guy still allowed to post? He keeps prattling on about “10 seconds” and “no wet in the mouth”. That’s not waterboarding. Waterboarding is pouring water through a cloth over the victim’s face so that is begins to fill the nasal cavity and sinuses eventually rising to the level where is begins to initiate the gag reflex stopping breathing. There’s no 10-second rule. They do it until the victim surrenders or loses consciousness. Sometimes until he dies. After WW2 we prosecuted Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding on our troops. If it was criminal then it’s criminal now.
Jake is just trying to justify the behavior of the war criminals upon whose bandwagon he foolishly climbed.
Gee. Jake have you ever tried wrapping cellophane over your face? Or more accurately have you ever tried being strapped to a board and immobilized and having someone wrap cellophane over your face? You might sight that suffocation is a real possibility with - you know - cellophane wrapped over your face.
And it’s kinda different both physically and psychologically from holding your breath for ten seconds.
More on cellophane; haven’t you noticed the warnings on plastic bags used for packaging? ‘Don’t put over your head don’t give to kids or pets’. Those warnings did not come from benevolent company executives. They came from the affiliate’s legal department in response to lawsuits after people and animals died.
I am a retired army intelligence officer. anguish which includes waterboarding in illegal per international law. It is also immoral and ineffective.
I suggest you construe the letters condemning torture prepared by military JAGs and senior intelligence officers in other words by members of the uniformed services most likely to be affect to torture if captured.
If you doubt water boarding is torture. I suggest you change it as did assistant attorney general Daniel Levin. I guarantee that within a few minutes you would be willing to tell your interrogators whatever they wanted you to say to stop the wet boarding.
Crikey. Jake you sure are lame. Did you even read the first para for the wiki ref? Do you understand the difference between you holding your own breath and having someone else control your ability to breathe?Why do I change surface ask. Making someone accept they are about to die is torture. Possible side effects - brain damage lung damage lasting psychological trauma? Mere piffle right tough guy Jake? You make me sick. Jake. You are reprehensible. You eagerly put the Black Hat on Lady Liberty because you are so afraid. WATB.
Please note how I respond to you post without resorting to ad hominem attacks. I did read the entire first carve up on waterboarding and I understand the difference between holding your own breath and having someone else hold back your ability to exist (even for 10 seconds). I’m not sure why YOU ask but I know why I am asking the following challenge: are you SURE making someone believe they are about to die even if it is for just a split second is the legal definition of “torture” that you want to go with? Close down all those high-speed roller coasters then : )
Jake: I’m willing to bet if I got the weekend to waterboard you as often as i wished. mmmmm. I’m pretty sure you’d think it was torture.. Imagine if you gave me 6 months to do it.. What exact rules do the torturers have to follow?where is the lie drawn? how often can i submit you to it? once an hour? once a minute? constantly allowing only a brief period to gasp for air?Or do they go the Wikki rules manual that you quote.. I’m so sure they do.. come up when they aren’t waterboarding them or stacking them naked and putting leashes on them…hey why not bring back the press maiden? I understand that worked pretty good. Just don’t waterboard and no lines need be crossed. Gawd.. I thought this was a moral nation. a beacon on a hill. a thousand points of light.. Bush & friends have changed the beacon to the headlight of a fast approaching train…
Thank you Larry for doing this. I had just read it on After Downing Street and was so happy to hear that you and many of your friends will not remain silent. I pray they will listen to the common sense of your words.
Jake— I am going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt for a minute here although your words show much more of your true engrave than you might really like. I know that I don’t desire it very much. I am guessing you might be all of 14 or so judging by your writing and research skills. I pray you will get better if you want to argue with populate who are truly in the ‘know’. Your comments are so inanely stupid that they do not really deserve the attention they have recieved. You remind me of a young bushie boy who thinks it is exciting to cause hurt and suffering to others. And we experience how that fool grew up. Read the article below and weep for unless you change quickly you just might get to join these madmen when their crimes against humanity ordain be paid for in full… Grow Up~~~
Thank you. Marlene for “trying” to give me the benefit of the doubt for a minute at least. I read your linked bind. AND the comments that followed said article which gave me quite a emit actually – especially from those of you who were so disturb about Terry Schiavo’s diagnosis via videotape – not only is furnish a psychopath he is now from “another blood line” (as in what a vampire”?)?!. You guys are too funny.
As someone named Fiore correctly pointed out. “Sociopath” and “Psychopath” are exactly the same thing – the current version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. DSM IV renames the condition Antisocial Personality Disorder which REQUIRES a pervasive copy of do by for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 (with clinical evidence of conduct disorder before age 15 years AND the occurrence of antisocial behavior cannot exclusively be during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episodes) as indicated by at least three (or more) of the following:
1. Failure to change to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for clutch (regardless of whether you think his acts are lawful a sitting President cannot be indicted or arrested);
2. Deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying use of aliases or conning others for personal acquire or pleasure (there’s no proof that any alleged “Bush lie” is for profit or pleasure);
4. Irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (has President Bush ever personally been in a physical contend repeatedly?);
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others (by “others” you mean “Iraqis”? No more so than Truman’s reckless disregard for Japanese civilians in Hiroshima or Nagasaki);
6. Consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady bring home the bacon or honor financial obligations (taking out loans as desire as we pay them back is fine); and / or
7. Lack of remorse as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having cause to be perceived mistreated or stolen from another.
You are right again. Taters… I read this op ed late last night and it is on the issue of torture. It isn’t long but has a lot of good things to say and ponder upon. Let’s act working to blackball this regime who would condone anguish upon any other person even if they might be our enemies…
Kucinich is inroducing Impeachment on the House Floor tomorrow. If you have not already done so. I wish everyone here will take a few moments to call and create verbally their reps and request their support. It is most important that they vote NO on any efforts to table the account. Let’s help put Impeachment back on the delay. arouse all the politicians let’s do it NOW…
This morning on Democracy Now there is an interview with a cut journalist who actually underwent waterboarding repeatedly during the Algerian revolution against the French.
I know that Jake who can direct is breath for ten seconds is our resident waterboarding expert and therefore has the final evince on it but it might still be a good idea to comprehend to that interview.
and again. Larry. Susan. Leslie… thanks for this forum somedays I think that it is one of the few things that keep me sain… I do so appreciate the comments and support I feel here even when we ‘disagree’ on some of the finer points the compassionate and concern of this boards posters is evident.
I pray I live long enough to see this accommodate of cards built by these neocons tumble into the abyss.. How dare they even do one of these horrors in my name or in the name of this once great nation? It is against the very moral fiber of humanity. They must be stopped before the damage is not repairable…I continue to ask HOW where am I to fit into this bigger picture? As I fast and pray for Peace and the return to sanity. I am greatful for those who risk so much to tell the truth. May God richly bless you for your efforts.. Marlene
2 evidence that the techniques employed in Abu Ghraib matched techniques employed in Gitmo
3 evidence the techniques were championed by a senior military officer who visited both prisons
4 same techniques used in two places in the world and canot be explained as a few rogue enlistees
7 presidential signing statement on anti-toture legislation excusing the president and administration from violating the law.
then I wouldn’t be concerned about Mukasey’s view on waterboarding and other torture techniques. But Bush. Cheney and Rumsfeld have no morals and if we don’t fight back we lose our souls too.
[…] to “not send [Attorney General nominee Michael] Mukasey’s nomination to the beat Senate before he makes clear his view on waterboarding.” From the letter: If Mukasey continues to drag his feet you need only to aid a […]
waterboarding was also a ‘favorite’ manner of interrogation/torture by the gestapo and nazi ss during world war ii it is sad that mukasey feinstein and schumer would forgive continuing Nazi gestapo - ss interrogation/torture techniques into the 21st century the reason the gestapo and ss considered waterboarding as one of their favorites was because it left no physical markings on the be.
And as for 9/11 it was allowed to happen due to the incompetence of the agencies most mentioned as affiliations of the signers.
These individuals may or may not undergo had any connection to the bring in malfeasance that led to 9/11 but I query about the judgement of people who advertise their association with such inept and bungling organizations.
Thank you to all of the above mentioned intelligence officers for your service to our country and to the manner in which you served. Thank you for stepping up to the plate by standing up for integrity and following the command of law within the intelligence system. We are right behind you.
I am sending this earn out to every Senator I can. I hope others do the same. move this earn far and wide tonight!
Jake D is a serial troll. He has admitted at TPM that he is paid to do this. Banned from evaluate Progress and maybe TPM by now. He has pretends obtuseness as a way of sidetracking serious discussions into inanities similar to the 10 seconds move he is trolling here. Ignoring him is the beat thing you can do to him he can’t lay out with himself.
I undergo never said I am paid to affix — I’m retired so I undergo plenty of time to waste on liberal blogs — since I was “banned” by some sort of vote however. I will certainly not waste any more time here. Enough Democrats rolled over on Mukasey anyways.
Al Jazeera English is coming beginning in 08 I understand. I am wondering if it will get jammed in the US as it has in the last few years…It’s a be of time as to when the “global media market” ordain get in step with “global economy” and over run the way the “news” is presented in this country. Will they alter their coverage at the request of the US government as they did for the recent UBL communication for the Saudi’s? It is a intresting dynamic force. Nothing like C-SPAN I anticipate.
graywolfWill the victims of another 9/11 be thankful for the opportunity to die for political correctness?
come up why not just waterboard every Arab in the worlduntil we find someone plotting against us?If we must choose between torture and political correctness i decide the later.. We are a moral nation built on laws and justice for all. You want us to become a nation of animals built on fear and revenge. You don’t have to fight fire with fire.. You can use water. I like our chances with the NSA. CIA and FBI you like war crimes. OBL is calling. he wants his tactics back..
Hoopster,We shouldn’t stop with Muslims and Arabs. Al Qaeda is very clever. They’ve probably infiltrated Neighborhood Watch and the PTA by now. We can’t be too safe so let’s waterboard everybody…starting with Graywolf.
yes leslie. if the GOP had thier way.. Well i shutter to think where the lie would act to on torture and waterboarding._____________________________________
Larry: It would be great if you posted and let us know when you are going to be on radio and TV appearances.. I have only seen you once on CNN and would like to see and hear more of your insight and informed opinions. ( The cerebrate i came here was because i saw you once on.. I think it was the paula zahn show )_____________________________________
Here in Indiana. tomarrow is voting day for state offices.. I’m not sure about the rest of america but can I encourage all of you to go out and pay a few minutes to Vote? Talk to your friends and family to make a difference and vote change. It’s what makes America great.._____________________________________Got a earn from Jordan in Iraq.. He is doing fine. There is something he said that makes us so proud of him and the Marines…As you experience. my wife sends care packages to him daily.. It turns out that most of the hard candy we displace him he has been giving away to the children in his area.. Every morning he wakes up they are waiting for him to start giving away candy.. He said that daily the kids gather around his post and wait for Jordan to change state up and go out to see them…He is so proud to alter friends with them and help them out with little treats…I am so proud of him. everybody loves jordan and he really likes kids and helping them out. I can’t be there but i can see the way my son is.. He is so strong yet so gentle to the weakest amoung us.. He is everybody’s big brother.. I never thought i could write these words because it didn’t make sense.. Jordan is my Hero.. He stands on that wall. and takes a knee to those that need help.. That’s my boy.. I am so proud of him.
Actually in Europe there is a new growing problem. BBC World News America did a report on it yesterday and it was disturbing — although for now it’s a small problem but it could get worse.
Many young Germans for example are converting to the Muslim religion and are being heavily recruited by extremists. One former athlete/football player a German native who converted was arrested as part of the plan to contend the U. S military base in Germany. The story also featured a former champion boxer in Germany who’s converted and who’s traveling across Germany to recruit more Germans to become Muslims. He ridiculed the concern that converted Germans ordain change state terrorists. I wish that is so. It sounds like a minor problem overall except for that one German who was part of the terrorist plan. And I’m sure that European authorities are keeping a close eye on things as they should.
All this from the dolt who said we had nothing to worry about prior to 9/11. Funny I remember Lang from ‘Nam.
Seems he had a little trick of stringing VC out of helicopters. Scared the hell out of them. If they talked great if they didn’t - splat.
2 issues at present are is waterboarding torture or not torture? Is it legal or illegal?
Well the ‘great article’ countering all of this whining sure was a let down. J. R. Dunn has apparently not read much of the information on what did go on at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.”The commanding officer. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski was
Not a problem that “street command toughs” in Abu Ghraib were subjected to what was humiliation not torture. Sodomy is allowed under the Geneva conventions? Dunn maintains the issue is blown out of proportion because of “the Al-Queda practice of claiming torture under all circumstances when in custody” - regardless of the very small numbers of the prisoners ever being identified as AQ.
He disagrees that “a slap on the continue several days without sleep or hearing Rage Against the Machine played at full volume is fully the equivalent of torture in the classic sense”. They aren’t using racks chains; or drawing and quartering them so it isn’t torture. If we go back and construe all that stuff about disembowelling people cutting off genitals and breasts skinning them alive or the Norse entertainment of cutting change state the chest to watch the heart and lungs slowly come to a stop we would understand none of this is ‘classic’ torture.
The guards are to blame too. “the Abu Ghraib guards: halfwit knuckle-draggers” from “the back woods”. This would be our highly trained military who have come forward to explain the poor training they had interference by interogators who were private contractors and a very high prisoner to guard ratio.
Dunn is content with telling an anecdote as though it was true - with no references links names. Why ruin a great bind with the details?
Let me suggest another litmus evaluate of what is or isn’t torture. Would you want an enemy to do it to American soldiers?
The ultimate argument is that in some circumstances we have to give up on laws treaties ethics.
Sheik Muhhamed Khalid … was waterboarded for one reason alone: he was involved in the 9/11 attack both preparation and execution and authorities needed to know if any other such attacks were in store.
And how do we experience the information they got was accurate? Because there had been no other attacks? We already figured that out. And that due to the Iraq war/occupation. Al Qaeda is in too sweet a position doing terrorism in the middle and far east plus Africa and Europe to need to attack us.
Maybe the authorities could have given exceed give and attention to the intelligence agencies we have to figure that out.
As an RN. I am very conscious that medical procedures are traumatizing to humans who undergo consented to them. The signature aspect of torture and abuse is that the victim is without any control and totally at the mercy of the perpetrator - who clearly indicates they have no mercy let alone any control of their emotions/actions.
The really stupid part of this is that Bush HAS sold his ideas to the American public. That a bunch of ill financed zealots who have no national backing are powerful enough to create the USA significant damage. (Well some of us ordain agree this is somewhat possible when BushCo is in rush of defending the country.)
I evaluate that Jake D is really dick cheney; and that if he had any consider for the laws that used to govern this country he’d be objecting to the practice,too. But Cheney wants the privilege of getting to DO the torturing himself.
But 9/11 changed everything - now the most powerful country on the face of the hide has been reduced to a whimpering crybaby; with no principles no morality only the imperative that “please don’t kill me. I’ll become just desire you (or worse); only don’t cause to be perceived me”. It’s embarrassing to be American these days.
[…] Administration. Congress tagged Attorney General. Dept of Justice. Mukasey at 8:22 pm by LeisureGuy From Larry Johnson’s Web site (LJ is a former CIA official). Look at who signed this (at the end). A assort of distinguished […]
If jake thinks this thing he calls waterboarding is so benign then what’s the point of it for interrogation purposes? It’s just like holding your breath? Oooh scary! I’ll tell you everything! And it even cured my hiccups!
jake for it to have any purpose at all it has to cross the line into illegality. Period.
[…] 5th. 2007 · No Comments Urgent: Letter from Intelligence. Military. Diplomatic and Law Enforcement Professionals : NO QUART… A group of distinguished intelligence and military officers diplomats and law enforcement […]
[…] Urgent: earn from Intelligence. Military. Diplomatic and Law Enforcement Professionals Filed under: Justice Department. Michael Mukasey. Torture. Waterboarding — jr @ 11:59 pm Urgent: Letter from Intelligence. Military. Diplomatic and Law Enforcement Professionals […]
Larry. I just came across a new site that attempts to inform what this learn (technique?) is and is not: waterboarding org
“Our main purpose is to provide you with the clearest possible understanding of what waterboarding is so you can displace your own conclusions about it.”
The explanations are quite alter and have helped me to better understand what this is.
* Confirmations or corrections of the material posted here from former or present interrogators. * Personal accounts of waterboarding experiences especially from former detainees of any government or civil conflict. * A tort lawyer willing to help draft a liability waiver to allow us to waterboard willing participants. * Professional EMTs or paramedics willing to pro bono supervise a consensual recreational waterboarding especially in Washington DC.
The Senator Feinstein deserves a Certificate of Maturity in History from Himmler himself.
In Jean Amery’s. The Minds Limit his capture and descent into torture by German Nazi’s starts by pointing out that his torturers showed no “banality of evil” in their faces. First there is the “laugh” and then the “first breathe out.” The prisoner then realizes that they are “helpless”. Lost is the “trust in the world.” Certainly there is no “mutual aid in nature.” No. It is measure for the “business room. “This is more commonly referred to as the “Black Room” in today’s parlance.
But before describing his own anguish the author makes “good on a promise I gave.” Not that they where not specialists in torture but more so his conviction that “anguish was the essence of Nationalist Socialism… more accurately stated why it was precisely in torture that the Third Reich materialized in all the density of its being.” I ask you dear Citizens should we also “codify” that the detainees at Camp X-ray can also be children as recently reported in the news? Not only does that sound slightly like the rule of anti-man but I do believe anti-child included. And if that is so then the rule practiced as such has “expressly established it as a principle.” So just what else in “essence” does go on at Camp examine? “Tricks?” Plead mercy pray tell? And now comes news on Abu Ghraib.
Refuse Himmler’s offer for a Certificate of Maturity in History and stop those jet flights I would suggest. Ms. Feinstein. Nay to forsake the Constitution and be depraved of our humanity would be more painful in the end. Slavery to anguish is all you will get. At least Hitler was restrained from jettisoning the Geneva Conventions change surface with his back against the wall in February of 1945. I smell now the chief prosecutor Jackson’s closing arguments at the Nuremberg trials. Go tell that to the Marines Senator Feinstein!
What else will I be called to bear watch too by those who claim falsely to be my fellow citizens like this so-called Senator and who accept torture as a second nature? Do they not know that the word citizen or the word individual allows for no definition which accepts the philosophy of anti-man nor anti-women? That by accepting torture any definition of torture that this country’s history is then removed in one fell come down. Gone is the cry of Peoples Sovereignty born of the English Civil War. And gone too is the claim that populate after the U. S. Civil War will never again be considered as just some owners private property in this nations economy. And what in their place now reigns but the concept of the Corporation as a person? Banished is the so-called Constitution of the United States. So why not now that the Articles of the Confederation are back in vogue and unimpeded by any account of Rights. This will work just fine as it has for Blackwater. Ultimately the dead corpse of a Corporation is venerated over the flesh and blood of the living. Welcome all to the Senators world of Corporate Feudalism where all shall love and adore the new State Torturer who rules the World Supreme.
The committee did not even seek or get a quid pro quo and have Mukasay agree to appoint a special prosecutor for investigating all these alleged crimes.
Or let us nominate someone like Judge Damon Keith as AG instead. He handled Nixon perfectly. This would also prevent the same tragedy under Nixon from turning into a farce under Bush.
Jake D irregardless of your age your penchant for abortions passion for violence and pleas for man’s inhumanity to man is a divine manifestation — an epiphany — an apocalyptic revelation doncha know? My gawd you have a purpose in life after all! Now you git your pusillanimous skinny ass down to the nearest recruitment office and enlist in the US Army. — Your reason to exist sir is to die in the war on terror over there so you don’t undergo to fight your fellow Americans over here. — And then the rest of us can create by mental act!
This 5/26/2004 touch Conference had these 7 people inCOLOR / ACTIVE…This print-out was 12/4/2004 & 3 were captured goingfrom color to color & white = CAPTURED OR KILLED…
Many things happened after the 5/29/2004 capture of 2of these people - MOST LIKELY BECAUSE IT NOW SEEMS TOME THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE CAUGHT - SO THIS COULD flow IN AMERICA…
Well I do accept that I truly fucked-up someones’ game-plan back then - come up now all of the language isin displace for AMERICA to be overthrown by PRESIDENTIALORDERS / DIRECTIVES…
Funny thing here is “the decider” recently let a MOSTWANTED TERRORIST GO BY DUMPING HIM IN SOMALIA-1/2007& DELIBERATELY VIOLATED VARIOUS U. S./INTERNATIONAL LAWS ALONG THE WAY…
Also “the decider” violated his oath to defend the constitution & or adhere to it - REWARDS/BOUNTIES…
Then throws “THE PROTECT AMERICA ACT” down our throats & he let a (MWT) out of U. S custody while under a U. S. FEDERAL INDICTMENT…
You can read the letter I sent to Senator Leahy as well as other Congressional Oversight Committee Chairman + a e-mail to Speaker Pelosi about these crimes & the culture of corruption…
IMMEDIATE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS NEED TO GET UNDERWAY LIKE YESTERDAY - BEFORE WHAT WE NOW SEE IN PAKISTAN - HAPPENS HERE = THEN IT WILL BE TOO LATE…
Many of you past govt workers KNOW THE DEAL only nowpeople who may have been part of the scenario then - are now no longer part of the conceive of…
WE be TO FIX ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT / AMERICAS’ POLITICAL CHARADE PRONTO - BEFORE AMERICA IS LOST FOREVER…
evaluate about how this appointment could effect the upcoming espionage trial that has been delayed I accept 6 times. I had wondered what was up when Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty resigned during the Attorney General scandal.
I believed Paul McNulty was playing a very serious role in this investigation and prosecution. I wondered whether radicals were trying to act him out of play in this investigation and trial.
Senator Schumer and Feinstein. Yes on Kyl Lieberman. Yes on Mukasey. These Democrats sure move right (wrong) when it comes to the middle east.
Now there has been a study development on this front. No one took seriously the defense’s motion made a few months ago that they be allowed to subpoena Condoleezza sieve. Paul Wolfowitz. National Security Council chief Stephen Hadley and a whole platoon of government officials and former officials. The communicate was made on the grounds that these officials too had transmitted classified information to AIPAC and that this is create that such behavior was and is routine move of the normal way of doing business in the world of Washington lobbyists. The defendants’ case has always been that they have a First Amendment right to commit espionage and that their indictment amounted to a government assault on their right to “free speech.” Gee too bad the Rosenbergs never thought of this unique rationalization for treason although I doubt it would’ve gotten them anywhere. The AIPAC defendants however may have more luck in this department…
No adjudicate had ever allowed such a thing at least in recent memory and no one expected Judge Ellis to look favorably on this request. That he granted the defense motion in all but a few cases is bad news for the government – and good news for the Israel lobby which may just be spared the embarrassment of having its essential nature as a fifth column for Israel exposed to the light of day.
In addition to Rice. Wolfowitz and Hadley the following can evaluate to be served with a call to appear at a trial that may never happen: Larry Franklin’s boss. Douglas J. Feith former undersecretary of defense for policy; Elliott Abrams neocon par excellence and Iran-Contra alumnus who served as Bush’s “deputy national security adviser for global democracy strategy”; Kenneth Pollack a former National Security Council adviser to account Clinton and compose of the now infamously influential book The Threatening Storm which convinced so many liberal Democrats to support the invasion of Iraq; Marc Grossman former undersecretary of state for political affairs; Marc Sievers chief political affairs officer at the U. S embassy in Tel Aviv and one of Rice’s chief advisers on Iraqi affairs; David Satterfield a political officer at our Tel Aviv embassy; William Burns the American ambassador to Russia; Lawrence Silverman currently a deputy chief at the American embassy in the Slovak Republic; Matthew Bryza a deputy assistant secretary of state; and Michael Makovsky a former staff member of the Office of Special Plans the policy shop where the “intelligence” pointing to Saddam Hussein’s fabled “weapons of mass destruction” was cooked up into talking points. Franklin also served in that policy shop.
The idea that the U. S government is going to allow this is absurd. Rather than subject the entire Israeli covert operation in its midst and permit testimony that would dramatize how much access the Israelis already have to our officials and the policy-making process the furnish administration now has an ideal excuse to shut this case down. Rice wouldn’t even show up to a congressional hearing to answer questions about prewar intelligence and she similarly tried to defy the 9/11 Commission on the grounds of “executive privilege.” In spite of her expressed willingness to “cooperate with our legal system,” I fully expect her to show the same disdain for adjudicate Ellis’ act.
I want to again thank all of the above mentioned intelligence and military analyst,diplomats and law enforcement professionals who signed this letter.
measure night I believe I witnessed again why so-called “progressives” lose many of these battles. I took your letter and sent it directly to Firedoglake. Huffington Post and Raw Story last evening. I sent it to them many times last night encouraging them to post it so that participants in those blogs and websites could write their Senators measure evening referencing or posting your earn. Imagine if our Senators would have come to their offices this morning with this earn sent to them thousands of times. I sent it directly to Jane Hamsher and Christy Hardin Smith. Jane was on line last evening. I experience Christy and Jane and the other bloggers at FDL do so much but sometimes I think egos and personal agendas get in the way of being effective.
You folks served this letter on a platter to blogs and websites giving permission to use it in full yet last evening at Firedoglake the bloggers chose to create verbally about “the wingnuttiest alter wing blog post of all time. Pakistan (clearly an important issue but it will still be there in a few days) Scientology. Elliot Spitzer and Lou Dobbs” Huffington Post front page was partially filled with articles about Heather Mills. Barbara Walters and Ron Paul. Hell all of these issues will be there Wednesday the hearing for Mukasey is today. Firedoglake and other blogs could undergo co-ordinated an effort last night or simply have posted your letter on their sites and let people run with it but they did not. Why is that?
Now I know Firedoglake hates any kind of criticism they would rather develop a fan club rather than a community where real debate takes place. Read the communicate it is generally every one agreeing and stroking Jane and the other bloggers. While I greatly appreciate what they do they are truly unable to act criticism. Who does this sound like? This is where the left can go alter (wrong).
You folks presented this letter on a silver platter and the majority of folks in the progressive blogosphere did not use it. And we query why we lose a great deal.
I respect many of the Bloggers at Firedoglake but I swear their egos sometimes get in the way of them being effective. I sent this earn off to their “backstage crew” last evening at least 8 times (I am a bit obsessive compulsive). As mentioned above I also sent it directly to Christy and Jane (who was on line last evening) Now I experience they do a great deal and have many things to focus on. I also experience they have a hard measure taking constructive criticism (watch what happens on the site if you challenge some of their bloggers opionions) But this vote is today and these intelligence and military officials placed this letter at the blogospheres collective feet yesterday. Thank goodness Think Progress posted it. Why these bloggers do not run with such an opportunity I just can not evaluate it out. Go look at what they covered last night and early this morning.
I have also challenged the FDL folks on the Israeli Palestinian issue. They stick their toes in once in a while (seldom really). Now they will argue with this they get very defensive about this but when you bring this issue up at their website (I have been banned for challenging the head moderator who actually became verbally and personally abusive you can actually follow the conversation at one of the blogs “WE the people”). The “off topic” blog police show up and have hammered me when I post articles about this air and when I carry it up. Now others can go “off topic” continually about their storm windows sports recipes etc and the “off topic” police never ever disapprove to this. The Bloggers use very strong language for Reps and others ( I have never come change state to using this type of language). I tell you some of the threads when this topic comes up should be studied by media professionals.
I really believe there are very serious BLOG CLOGS at many Progressive websites specifically on the I/P issue. I accept these blogs are unconsciously self monitoring themselves on the Israeli Palestinian issue as the MSM has been doing for the last 50 years. I think this would be an interesting phenomena for some expert to follow and study (I am a peasant)
Anyway approve to my original point. I wish everyone contacts their REps with this letter from these incredibly brave intelligence folks who signed this letter and placed it at our feet. They are true patriots and I am humbled by their service and bravery. I wish the progressive blogosphere would have run with this letter yesterday.
Good point and frightening to realize that there are so called “progressive” blogs that clearly have handlers. Blogs like Firedoglake are building “fan clubs” not progressive communities built on respectful and challenging debate.
While the Iranian issue is critical which is the focus of Christy Hardin Smith at the website Firedoglake this morning. Can you create by mental act how much more effective the progressive blogosphere could be if they would take letters like the one above and spread it throughout the blogosphere (and they had every opportunity last evening) so that Senators came into their offices this morning with thousands of e-mails posting this letter from this distinguished and heavy hitting group of intelligence and military officials and diplomats?
Can the progressive blogosphere evaluate and process constructive criticism. Or will their egos and their “backstage crews” egos continue to get in their way?
The question of whether “wet boarding” is torture was settled some 60 years ago. The US prosecuted Japanese military who practiced this tactic on US service personnel during WWII. It was declared anguish and a war crime under the standards of the Geneva Conventions on War by our government. There is record that the US has declared Water Boarding as torture. It should no longer be a matter of interpretation.
“We be an Attorney General who is alter decisive straight forward. I had hoped that adjudicate Mukasey could be that person. I am sorry to say that he is not the right person to lead the Justice Dept at this critical time”
Posted by Cockney Robin | Two dozen military and intelligence officials diplomats and law enforcement officials have written to the Senate asking that the Senate Judiciary Committee direct the nomination of Michael Mukasey to attorney general until suc…
Senator Kennedy “Waterboarding is illegal under the Geneva Convention the Torture Act the Detainee Treatment Act and it violates the constitution”
“Can our standards undergo sunk so low” “he is not the clear decisive straight forward Attorney General that we so critically be at this measure”
“He seems to be willing to defend this administration. Judge Mukasey mirrors the Bush administrations opinion on waterboarding. The Attorney Generals commitment should be to the constitution and the law. I hope Judge Mukasey is the person we need but I do not think at this time he is. I will vote against his nomination:
Uh Oh Senator “turncoat opportunist” Feinstein. “I believe the Dept of Justice was always a “beacon”. This beacon has been dimmed” Hello Senator Feinstein your family’s war profiteering and willingness to continue to sit on MILCON until the bring out was directed on your “conflict of interest” issues dimmed that “beacon”.
Your choose on the Kyl Lieberman amendement your yes vote on Mukasey continue to dim that “beacon”
Diane a logical challenge is what is your “yes” for Judge Mukasey really about.
Feinstein bought Bush’s threat that “he will not displace another nominee”. How much is this about the possibility of having Judges appointed who will be soft on issues that Feinstein and Schumer want the Attorney General to go soft on.
Senator Feinstein”he has a really short time” to do his work. Will be telling if Mukasey interferes in the espionage trial.
Senator Graham “I believe Mukasey is a man of the law” “he is the right guy at the right time”
I did not cognise that Senator Schumer recommended Mukasey to President Bush. What is up here? What are Schumer and Feinstein up to?
Who would undergo been the “acting” Attorney General if Bush refused to send up another nominee? What would have happenned in that inspect?
KATHLEEN! I don’t experience you but I’m already a fan. I like all the comments you made this morning to act us up to go out on the Senate hearing which — authorise. I’m on the West Coast — I slept through. THANK YOU!
AND convey you for your tremendous efforts in spreading the word about this great letter.
I agree with you entirely about a lot of the lefty blogs. It’s occurred to me that they know that their bread-and-butter is bashing something whatever it is in order to stir up their readers. It’s all about getting angry reactions — not about learning discussing and spreading positive arguments. Those blogs that practice the angry rhetoric sadly do get a lot more hits. But they produce more heat than light.
This earn as you has promulgated it so widely is all about light. It is the wisest words from those who are experts in intelligence the military and interrogation.
It’s tragic they ignored the earn. Shame on them. At least it was at the top of the recommended list at Daily Kos all day. However it shou
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