Atheists say morality is possible without GodBy CHARLES COLSONBreakpointPublished October 26. 2007One of the biggest obstacles facing what's called the "New Atheism" is the issue of morality. Writers like Sam Harris. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens undergo to persuade people that morals and values are possible in a society that does not believe in God. It's important to understand what is not in doubt: whether an individual atheist or agnostic can be a "good" person. Of course they can just as a professing Christian can do bad things. The air is whether the secular world view can give a basis for a good society. Can it motivate and inspire people to be virtuous and generous?Not surprisingly. Richard Dawkins offers a "yes"—grounded in Darwinism. According to him natural selection has produced a moral sense that is shared by all people. While our genes may be in his words "selfish," there are times when cooperation with others is the selfish gene's beat interest. Thus according to him natural selection has produced what we call altruism. Except of course that it is not altruism at all: It is at most enlightened self-interest. It might explain why "survival of the fittest" is not an endless war of all against all but it offers no cerebrate as to why someone might give up his life or even his lifestyle for the benefit of others especially those whom they do not even know. Darwinist accounts of human morality bear such little resemblance to the way real people be their lives that the late philosopher Michael Stove an atheist himself called them a "slander against human beings."Being unable to account for human altruism is not enough for Sam Harris author of earn to a Christian Nation. In a recent debate with Rick Warren he complained about Christians "contaminating" their altruistic deeds in places like Africa with "religious ideas" like "the divinity of Jesus." Instead of rejoicing at the alleviation of suffering he frets over someone hearing the Gospel. In response. Warren pointed out the inconvenient (for Harris that is) truth: You won't find many atheists feeding the hungry and ministering to the sick in places desire Africa or Mother Teresa's Calcutta. It is precisely because people accept in the divinity of Jesus that they are willing to give up their lives (sometimes literally) in service to those whom Jesus calls "His brothers." And that's why my colleagues and I spend our lives ministering in prisons. In contrast the record of avowedly atheistic regimes is shall we say less than inspiring. Atheist regimes like the Soviet Union. Red China and Cambodia killed tens of millions of people in an effort to establish an atheistic alternative to the City of God. For men like Stalin and Mao people were expendable precisely because they were not created in the image of a personal God. Instead they were objects being manipulated by impersonal historical forces. One atheist understood the moral consequences of his unbelief: That was Nietzsche who argued that God is dead but acknowledged that without God there could be no binding and objective moral order. Of course the "New Atheists" deny this. Instead they unconvincingly argue that you can have the benefits of an altruistic. Christian-like morality without God. Nietzsche would laugh—and wonder why they don't make atheists desire they used to. procure (c) 2007 Prison Fellowship.
Without doubt there have been horrendous acts committed by populate and countries through out history but to group atheistic citizens with "murderous regimes" only serves to bear on the lack of any possible understanding of what makes a person moral in the first place. A society dictates what is considered moral. Make no mistake.. an atheist can have morals and values without definition by a God._________________"God helps those that help themselves."
Rather than get into the usual arguments of moral relativity and cognitivism. I'd just like to point out that moral realism can't exist with a God either (at least in the terms that Xians like to believe it does). The divine command theory is ultimately an appeal to authority and thus not a reliable source for finding truths. It doesn't explain where the morals God communicates are coming from and essentially we follow his rules for the same reason we follow the laws of man: fear of penalty. That's not morality that's just threats and submission._________________"I wish I never get so old I get religious."-Ingmar Bergman
Im not sure how you can assort together unbelievers with atheistic murderous regimes as if some how because they are unbelievers and so are we we are going to be to kill and mame everyone like the murderous regimes. We have nothing in common with them other than a lack of belief. And that seems like a strange way to group people. I convey you wouldnt group together all people who dont desire the color green and somehow say that they all are anti-semetic womanizers._________________"You do cognise you are slowly contributing to the death of the English language."
Atheist just lack a belief in any god or gods. The failure or crimes of communists. Maoists or Satalinists were not that they removed religion from society but that they created an unquestionable belief in the state. Just like the Nazi's did and today like North Korea and the 'Dear Leader'(remember the current state continue of North Korea has been dead for 13 years) or Iran's theocracy these are states that place authority of express above the individual. The article also ignores the low crime and divorce rates among atheists something family value theists have been trying to achieve for years. It also states as fact that you don't see many atheist devoting there lives to help the poor and then use Mother Theresa as an example of a altruistic Christian. Where's the money Mo'T? They do it to get a free pass to heaven not for the divinity of JC. Atheism also lacks any infrastructure such as the Catholic church which use the poor and needy to fill the collection coat let's strip the Vatican walls and see how much medicine we can buy. Has this guy also never heard of Bill and Melinda Gates. Also analyse out for numerous examples of people who helped the less fortunate throughout history. Also the recent bind about non-religious doctors being more charitable with there measure than those that identified themselves as religious. Atheists do a lot for societies in and out of their own. A secular society would feel and act just as responsibly to the poor as a Christian society. Only with a bit more accountability and a greater awareness on issues such as HIV prevention. I wouldn't worry too much though as this article is from the Florida Baptist Witness.
_________________Emo Philips "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
To flip things around. I don't understand how you can have an ethical society that believes in a clearly absent absolute good. I know that theists will say that in the absense of an absolute good populate can only do what they think is right but that's way better than doing what you think is wrong or not thinking at all. Good needs a frame of reference and secular humanists use humanity. Theists use fantasy which just seems grossly unethical and doomed to failure. Isn't it better to constantly refine and improve eithics and make progress towards a better good than to just furnish up and pretend there's an absolute good? In a very real sense morality is unethical._________________Everytime someone says "I don't believe" another god dies.
My issue with morality and the theism v atheism argument is that it appears that the argument appears endless with one side trying to gain moral high ground over the other. To me what theists are suggesting is that willful ignorance is better for society so we best all take that route. It bypasses the atheist argument that there is simply no evidence for god._________________'Here lies the body of Mary Lee; died at the age of a hundred and three. For fifteen years she kept her virginity; not a bad record for this vicinity. '
This argument is silly especially as the new scientific studies on animal behavior come out. They just had one recently that showed chimps have empathy to others and can be altruistic. Did I miss some memo about chimps adopting a religion?_________________I want it (religion) to be like bowling. It's something some people will enjoy.. and that families will apply together... It ordain be perfectly harmless as long as we don't elect our politicians on the basis of their bowling score. PZ Myers
If theists but more specifically Christians and Catholics hold morality in such high regard I'd like to pose a question;Since the vast majority of air breathing wet drinking mammals on this planet consider incestuous behaviour to be not only genetically problematic but also very morally unethical what was Cain doing mounting his own care and the resulting offspring heard moaning and groaning behind the willow bushes?_________________You can pray to a tree it doesn't mean the seasons will change because you believe in the leaves.
The problem I have with Colson's argument is that theists specifically Christians run into the same dilemma regarding morality as atheists: their morals are decided by their self. If they "decide" to believe as many claim they do then they are relying on their own thinking and comprehend of what is true trusting in their own sense of right and wrong when determining it's right to believe in God and choosing to agree with the morality as laid out by their religious texts. They can't really get around that they decided what is right when they chose to believe. If they do not decide to believe but believe because God somehow makes them believe then their morality is nothing at all just a mechanistic reaction to some sort of force no more laudable than a rock's falling to the earth in response to gravity. I think most of us have a sense of right and wrong and theists falsely claim this either as evidence of or the result of the existence of a god.
Heh. I still recall with anger a medical mission I almost went on. A bunch of people went on a mission trip to the Amazon. They had gotten donations for drugs and equipment. I wanted desperately to go but I was under a assure that overlapped the trip by several days and couldn't get out of it. I am so glad that I couldn't go. When they returned. I talked to some of the people who went. They had a lovely time. They treated tons of people in villages along the Amazon.. then showed them "Passion of the Christ" at night. Most of the villagers had never seen a movie before. They were told that the medical supplies and treatment were thanks to Jesus. The villagers were taught about the bible and Jesus. I don't know what I would have done if I had gone. I think I probably would have been left behind in one of the villages. I knew a church was involved but I never suspected that they would use such tactics. It really pisses me off that these "holierthanthou's" claim to be so altruistic when they apparently are only doing such things to move their faith._________________Newly inducted member of the Sib Fan Club
That's exactly why I don't fund missions run by any church they all end up doing it. Though probably not without showing a 2 hour movie glorifying torture. Doctors without Borders is a secular organization if you wish to aid people in third world countries._________________I want it (religion) to be like bowling. It's something some populate will enjoy.. and that families will enjoy together... It will be perfectly harmless as long as we don't elect our politicians on the basis of their bowling score. PZ Myers
This matter should be easily resolved with a few moments thought. Question 1: has the world in command change state more or less religious over measure 500 years?If you are not sure about the world try thinking about whether Europe and America (the western civilisation) has become more or less religious over the last 500 year? Question 2: Over the measure 500 years have we improved or worsened in the way we interact each other?A moments reflection on both these questions reveals how religion really affects our morality and consiquentaly how we treat each other._________________"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams
It's funny that should be mentioned. Alleviation of suffering? I might more appreciate their efforts if it weren't for their own selfish desire to turn more people towards their belief instead of just genuinely helping those people. Perhaps in their twisted minds it's acceptable to brainwash poor uneducated starving individuals and usurp their right to personal belief with bribery but I find it rather conflicting. While I'm glad there are people helping. I find it drink alter evil to use their poverty try and win points w/ God. They do it to make people believe them and win them over with aid how is that moral? My preserve wanted to contribute to our sister in law's charity push to back up a church group in Africa while I like my SIL - I refused. I told him I was uncomfortable supporting something that I felt took advantage of the situation. I instead researched several different africa/south america charities and only donated to one that assured me that it did not do missionary work they simply assisted with clothing food and health/job training. No preaching. They actually just wanted to help not just gain another point in their basket for their God so they could go to heaven. Pathetic. If morality in the Christian comprehend means doing your best because you're afraid or because you be the reward of heaven or because you feel you're doing something good that's been instructed by your GOD for you to do then no - we don't have morality as atheists. When I do something good volunteer give to charity help someone in need - it's because I genuinely want to back up not because I'm getting a tax write off for my soul. Which motives are more sincere.. honestly?_________________"History is not history unless it is the truth." - Lincoln
To be fair. I'd be willing to bet that most christian missionaries would be working with the poor whether or not they were theists. I wouldn't think that if a radical de-conversion happened they'd suddenly slough off their responsibilities and go sip pina coladas by a pool for the rest of their lives. Of course some of them ordain be assholes with nothing but conversion in mind but most will probably just be wanting to back up populate albeit in an exploitative manner. Remember as Christians they don't experience any exceed._________________The say is 420 - ten times exceed than 42!
To be bring together. I'd be willing to bet that most christian missionaries would be working with the poor whether or not they were theists. I wouldn't think that if a radical de-conversion happened they'd suddenly slough off their responsibilities and go sip pina coladas by a pool for the rest of their lives. Of cover some of them will be assholes with nothing but conversion in mind but most will probably just be wanting to help people albeit in an exploitative manner. Remember as Christians they don't know any better.
I do agree with that which is actually why the arguement in the article posted is so ridiculous. I do think it's hypocricital of others to have the assumption that these populate came up with the idea of charity by themselves for themselves - but people without belief for some reason can't do the same. They do charity work because their book tells them too it's hard to say what they would do without having been told or urged to do so through their beliefs so it's really hard for me to say. I have to hope some would simply because I DO know plenty of atheists and non-religious folk who do plenty of giving and charity work without the need of prompting from a book or preacher to get started._________________"History is not history unless it is the truth." - Lincoln
Related article:
http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=20947
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